Titos partizans kiled the whole SS unit !

Objective research on factual information regarding German military related warcrimes.
Matthias Fritz
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Heer units or SS units ?

Post by Matthias Fritz »

You must know one thing ! The war in Yugoslavia was over one month after the 2.ww ended in other parts of Evropa, since the german units, specialy the SS, were truying to rich the English, knowing that if they woud be captured by titos partizans, they woud be shot withaut any questions ! There have bean some hard fightings betwen SS and partizans near the slovinian avstrian border !

I am loking for some info abouth such incidents, to report them back to you !

I must say that the SS were acualy comited some horrifaying deads in former Yugoslavia, specialy in Bosnia and Serbia, but thay have bean all done by yugoslav members of waffen SS, the croats, bosnia muslims and kosovo albanians, and that is why i can understand the hate partizans felt ageinst members of the SS !
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Matthias,

You highlight the important point that, regardless of which side they are on, it is politicised forces like the Waffen-SS and Partisans who seem more likely to commit war crimes.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by rommel_gaj »

but thay have bean all done by yugoslav members of waffen SS, the croats, bosnia muslims and kosovo albanians
Sure, it was all done by pre-1941 Yugoslav citizens, vast majority of it by Ethnic Germans of the 7. SS. Don't remember connecting places like Otok or Kriva Reka with the names "Handschar" or "Skanderbeg".

I would most friendly advise some reading on the topic.
You highlight the important point that, regardless of which side they are on, it is politicised forces like the Waffen-SS and Partisans who seem more likely to commit war crimes.
Generally true, but it is hard to find a military formation in Yugoslavia 1941-1945 which was not to some extent politicised. We also got to have in mind that the worst massacres perpetrated by the Germans in Yugoslavia, the mass shootings in Macva in fall of 1941, happened without a single W-SS unit present...

Gaius
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Mathias Fritz

Post by John P. Moore »

I noticed that some people here had concerns about the sources of information that Matthias Fritz was posting here. Matthias Fritz is also making some posts about what appears to be fake or non-existent militaria for sale on the GDC forum that has raised a lot of concern among members. here is the link-

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/ ... 6170091274

John
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Post by Troy Tempest »

Reb wrote: I could obsess all day over what the damn yankees have done to the southland but I don't.

cheers
Reb
Hi Reb, I wonder if people in the south obsess all day over what they did to the blacks? I found it interesting that anyone from the south could actually contemplate obsessing over what the 'damn yankees' allegedly have done to the southland in view of your history. I'm sure there are far more reasons for blacks to obsess about the south than southerners have to obsess about the north. Would that be reasonable on my part? I'm not a good ol' boy, so I don't know, it just struck me as funny people would think that way about the north after what the south did to blacks.
Hello from sunny Port Macquarie
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Post by Reb »

General

"I'm sure there are far more reasons for blacks to obsess about the south than southerners have to obsess about the north. Would that be reasonable on my part? I'm not a good ol' boy, so I don't know, it just struck me as funny people would think that way about the north after what the south did to blacks."

We didn't do anything to blacks. Slavery had existed for thousands of years. The yankees sent ships to Africa to buy slaves to sell in the south.
Our sin was buying slaves. Which wasn't considered a sin when we did it. Nobody has ever complained for some reason, about the yankee slavers. With 24 hour a day media propaganda and the subversion of the public school system, nobody ever will know about it either.

By the time of the War of Northern Aggression there were several hundred thousand free blacks in the south. Many served in our forces as both soldiers and teamsters. Was slavery bad? I think so. So did 95% of the southerners at that time.

England had recently abolished slavery and Brazil was on the way. We'd have freed the slaves within twenty years. The first big battle of the war, Bull Run, was fought on the farm of a free black man in Virginia.

So I find it hard to say we "did something" to them - we merely carried on with what we found when we were born. (like abortion today for people under 30 - is it their fault when it was already in place when they were born?)

The Yankees in Illinois - Abe Lincoln's state btw - did not even allow blacks to own property. US Grant was a slaveholder. It is a carefully calculated myth that the war was about slavery.

Lincoln's words when we seceeded, "What about my tariff?" Exactly. We got tired of paying for the industrial revolution in the north. He is also noted for saying "If I could win this war by freeing the slaves I would do it - if I could win it without freeing any slaves - I would do that too." His much vaunted emancipation proclamation did NOT free slaves in the north - it was just designed to impact the southern economy.

What did the yankees do to us? They burned our towns and villages, pillaged the whole south, killed a third of our young men and destroyed our freedom. Prior to Lincoln's illegal war of aggression, secession was considered a normal redress of wrongs - the declaration of independence was not signed by any central govt - but by the individual states. (several northern states including Maine and Mass. had nearly seceeded earlier in that century)

Now the US is no longer free, no longer a republic and has no access to redress of wrongs from the pathetic clowns in washington.

That's what the yankees did to us.

cheers
Reb
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Post by Troy Tempest »

Reb, I wan't trying to attack you on a personal level, I hope you understand. I am aware of the campaign of destruction that the North engaged in. I know slaves were owned in the north. What I meant to say, I was more thinking in how blacks seem to have been treated in the south since the war, or at least in the 20th century. I admit, as a foreigner, I am no expert on the matter, but I have seen footage revolving around the civil rights movement, and I was shocked at the treatment of blacks in southern society in general. To me, it looked like racism was institutionalised in large portions of your society, and the protests when LBJ tried to get black children in white schools, blacks not being allowed to eat in certain places, sit on the front of the bus etc, the KKK, all of that. I still don't see a lot of black Congressmen or Senators today (go Al Sharpton!). I fully acknowledge that hopefully most southerners don't subscribe to that way of thinking, but it did happen, and it seems to me that the change was forced upon your states by Washington and pressure from northern states. Is that fair? If I was an American, I most certainly wouldn't like to be born black. Hell, as an Australian, I'm glad I wasn't born black. Our Aboriginal population has not fared well in health, socio-economic and education areas either. The difference is our problems are more of indifference rather than law. I can't relate to a country where it was against the law to sit in a certain seat on the bus or eat in a certain place you know? I know that's not the case now, but it was in my lifetime. It reminds me of South Africa, that's what I meant!
Hello from sunny Port Macquarie
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Reb,

Yup. Slavery was on its way out, Civil War or no Civil War.

As far as I am aware, it was abolished nowhere before about one generation prior to the Civil War and was legal nowhere later than about one generation after the Civil War. It is hard to see an independent CSA bucking this global trend under any circumstances.

If slavery was such a central issue, there would have been a larger flight of Confederate exiles to Brazil and a smaller one to Canada.

As a matter of interest, how many Confederates actually went to Brazil? How did this hard core react when Brazil also abolished slavery thirty years later? Passively, I suspect.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by Reb »

General

Actually, I grew up in Maryland which considered itself a southern state and I was there for the civil rights movement. I didn't see much going on that looked wrong to me and when the schools were integrated there was simply no issue. In fact I was new in my school when the first blacks came in and so we were all outsiders together - but not for long.

There were the much publicized abuses, Jim Crow at its worst was pretty disgusting. But consider - after the Secession War the Yankees and carpetbaggers used freed slaves to assume political power over southerners - creating a great deal of resentment.

To our shame - we looked to the north for a solution and what we got were the Jim Crow laws. Yep, got 'em from the yankees. Don't make it right but should keep the yankees from getting on their high moral horse -of course it doesn't though, does it?

And given the emphasis on good manners you find in the south the truth is that most of the racial abuses were tied to a few rednecks we refer to down here as "white trash."

Having been in South Africa I can assure you that Southern racial problems were no where near being like Apartheid.

I occassionally talk to foriegners who seem to think the south is one mean place. :D I assure you, you are safer here than just about anywhere in the world. Besides, the food is good too!

You will find in America today that the south is the best place to live. Both for blacks and whites. Less crime, less racial animosity, more manners.

I make no apology for Jim Crow - but only because I had no part in it. I do regret it and blame it on the war. A peaceful transition from slavery to freedom would have made that a non issue.


Out of time - have to run!

cheers
Reb
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Reb,

Just checked. About 4,000 Confederates emigrated to Brazil after the Civil War, most of whom returned to the USA in the 1870s, leaving only a few hundred. Clearly the perpetuation of slavery was a diehard cause to almost nobody!

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by Reb »

Sid

Exactly.

btw - have you ever seen film or photos of the confederate festival in Brazil? Pretty cool - reb flags all over the place - black people and whites both partying hard!

How it could have been...j

cheers
Reb
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Post by Imad »

I don't think Herr Awender is a self hating German but I have met the type before. Recently a German friend told me they had a Wehrmacht exhibition near Cologne and apparently some people raised a hue and cry about it. I asked him why and he said some people don't want to be reminded about what the Wehrmacht did. I just shook my head and thought "what a bunch of yo-yos".
Why is it so hard to have an academic interest about wartime Germany and not be branded a war-lover or war-monger with some people?
People study criminology and criminal behaviour in colleges for Pete's sake. Does that mean they're "crime-lovers" or people that have a "fascination with crime"?
Madness
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Post by Paddy Keating »

Generalderpanzertruppen wrote:
Reb wrote: I could obsess all day over what the damn yankees have done to the southland but I don't.

cheers
Reb
Hi Reb, I wonder if people in the south obsess all day over what they did to the blacks? I found it interesting that anyone from the south could actually contemplate obsessing over what the 'damn yankees' allegedly have done to the southland in view of your history. I'm sure there are far more reasons for blacks to obsess about the south than southerners have to obsess about the north. Would that be reasonable on my part? I'm not a good ol' boy, so I don't know, it just struck me as funny people would think that way about the north after what the south did to blacks.
The people of what might have become the Confederacy were far from alone in 'what was done to the Blacks'. This is akin to blaming the Germans alone for 'what was done to the Jews'. The Founding Fathers of the American Republic all owned slaves, as did many people throughout the United States and associated territories after independence from London.

Black slavery in the New World was an import of European imperialists and colonialists, most notably the British, who imported West Africans because they were more resilient to the climate and working conditions on the plantations of the Deep South (and the West Indies) than the white, largely Celtic deportees transported there in the beginning. Slavery existed amongst the indigenous peoples of North-Eastern America.

As for the labour source itself, the image of evil redcoats rampaging through the African bush, rounding up terrified natives and shipping them off across the Atlantic is certainly an emotive one but not quite accurate. The Blacks of whom you speak were seized and sold to White slavers by the kings, tribal chieftans and warlords of the coastal peoples of West Africa.

Some Confederate supporters treated Blacks atrociously and many of their descendants continue to be disdainful of their African-American compatriots. However, there were many who favoured abolition but who also feared the likely outcome of simply freeing thousands of slaves. You'd need to have some knowledge of economics within that historical context to understand the situation.

Thousands of Blacks, including slaves and freemen, volunteered for the CSA armies and her navy. I believe some 13,000 actually saw combat as frontline troops.

History is a complicated subject. You cannot airily say "Yankees good...Rebels bad", especially when you hail from a country where "Abos" are still treated as badly as many Native Americans in the USA, where refugees are incarcerated on Oz's equivalent of Devil's Island...and tourists are expected to drink Fosters. Things just aren't that simple.

PK
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Paddy,

I agree with the general tone of your post.

However, the arming of black troops was an act of desperation by the government of the Condederacy in the dying days of the war. It was a bit like the motivation for the Germans arming Vlassov's ROKA in the last days of WWII.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by Reb »

Sid

For an early example of black soldiers fighting on our side see the battle of Chickamauga where Forrest's teamsters disobeyed his orders to stay in the rear and tore into the yankees with their repeating rifles.

They lost 13 dead and twenty wounded. Some where slave and some were free. After the war, and despite revisionist vitriol about Forrest and his clan affiliation they requested that Forrest lead the free men's bureau in Nashville which he did. (He also left the klan when it turned from kicking around carpetbaggers to picking on blacks).

Irish born Patrick Cleburne, when of our best assault generals, had suggested using blacks in large numbers early on but was shouted down by aristocrats - a breed I could do without!

Paddy

I don't know how the abos are treated but I know the US govt treats American Indians like @#%! Its a national disgrace and includes a string of broken treaties as long as your arm.

cheers
Reb
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