Alec Salmond please make Scotland independent

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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking »

"national identity is essentially a state of mind."
....except in those cases where its backed up by real, actual Nationhood. In 1921, the Irish stopped being just Irish - and became citizens of a sovreign Irish State.

The Irish do NOT - for example, by your reckoning - view England, Wales or Scotland as part of Ireland, nor do they regard themselves as UK nationals though pragmatism may have a spare second passport in the suitcases. However much the English try to still regard the Irish as British :lol: "The British Isles" is a geographical term....it has never been used on the front of a British/UK passport, or as a definition of nationality, except for the term "British" which is not technically linked to the islands but to the (former) United Kingdom of its peoples - a rather changeable term over the centuries. By force of circumstance the term "British Isles" is rapidly declining in usage in the English language. Apart from BBC wildlife or geography documentaries, that is, where it will always be 1953...

(Sid, I thought you WEREN'T an advocate of saying a thing often enough to make it true of itself.....)
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Phylo,

National identity and statehood are two different things.

National identity is essentially a state of mind. Statehood, which you are describing, requires physical trappings.

The UK has all the trappings of statehood you mentioned above for Ireland, but at least three separate national identities that are just as distinct as the Irish. (Add in two more distinct identities in Northern Ireland, if you wish, one of which IS Irish.)

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Sid, an excellent argument - except for one trifling point....
National identity and statehood are two different things
...except where the two are the same thing.

Another example - the Jewish Diaspora. Until 1948 there one thing Jews did not regarding themselves as having was a nation or being part of a nation...they were part of a race, a people - national identity was what they had lacked since 125AD. Because they defined themselves by the lack of a nation - as both a very specific geographical location and a political and social entity - for nearly 2000 years.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Phylo,

I think you are agreeing with me. If so, great!

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Not at all, with specific respect to Ireland. And Israel. Both places where "national identity" was defined and shaped by pincipally the LACK of statehood. So "national identity and statehood are two different things" is very specifically incorrect in these cases.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Double post.
Last edited by sid guttridge on Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Phylo,

Your point seems to be that Irish and Jewish identity were forged in the absence of statehood.

If true, surely that is to agree with my point that "National identity and statehood are two different things"?

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

No, if their national identity was shaped by statehood - whether present or missing - then the two are congruous and interdependent, and not divisible. Another example would be modern Sri Lanka...and I'm tempted to say Tibet, from the other side of the copin, where a people's "nation" was taken away. The people remain Tibetan - no matter where they are in the Tibetan Diaspora - but they wouldn't be Tibetan in "modern", Post-Chinese Invasion terms if it wasn't for that nation having existed before 1950 in a different form. Similarly with Armenia.

I will however be kind and give you an example of what YOU mean - Cyprus. The two "races" (for want of a better term) living there don't see themselves as Cypriot, but as Greek or Turkish Cypriot. Their national identity is on a higher level beyond the State of Cyprus.

Which proves actually what *I* said was true - your "National identity and statehood are two different things" is NOT a hard and fast rule and has many contrary examples that mean it shouldn't be applied as a rule or an "essential" truth.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Phylo,

You still seem to be agreeing with my point that national identity and statehood are two different things.

National identity can and has been generated and survived in the absence of all the attributes of statehood you listed earlier. The fact that one can have statehood and national identity simultaneously doesn't alter my point that they are two different things. If they were the same thing, national identity would disappear at the same time as a state does, but we know this is not the case. You have listed half a dozen examples of national identities existing sometimes for millenia without a state of their own.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

You have listed half a dozen examples of national identities existing sometimes for millenia without a state of their own.
No, and THIS is what you haven't grasped...

they've existed because they haven't had a state, or had it taken away.

The Jewish cultural identity didn't depend over millenia as much on a shared religion (with so many schisms and sects???) - as a shared origin and position in the world as a dispossessed nation. The "Irish" as a nation regard themselves as a "nation" - and I'll let you go and find out exactly what a patchwork of political, social and racial origins they come from - because MANY times they've had something and had it taken away in greater or lesser degree.

And therefore you can't say they're different things, because their identity IS their statehood...or someone having taken that statehood away. Or having regained it - usually by their own efforts.
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Post by 5RANGLIAN »

phylo_roadking wrote:
You have listed half a dozen examples of national identities existing sometimes for millenia without a state of their own.
No, and THIS is what you haven't grasped...

they've existed because they haven't had a state, or had it taken away.

The Jewish cultural identity didn't depend over millenia as much on a shared religion (with so many schisms and sects???) - as a shared origin and position in the world as a dispossessed nation. The "Irish" as a nation regard themselves as a "nation" - and I'll let you go and find out exactly what a patchwork of political, social and racial origins they come from - because MANY times they've had something and had it taken away in greater or lesser degree.

And therefore you can't say they're different things, because their identity IS their statehood...or someone having taken that statehood away. Or having regained it - usually by their own efforts.
Somewhere in there is (what I believe to be) the reason for why the English feel so uncomfortable in the EU. Since Magna Carta we have been, broadly speaking, a free nation with settled boundaries, which makes its own decisions. This means that we didn't need to develop a strong national identity a la the Irish, because no-one was persecuting or disposessing us.

Then along comes Ted Heath, he says we're all part of Europe now, and these nice people in Brussels will be making our laws from now on. After a generation of this we get a really clear surge in English nationalism (I think it started in 1996, when it suddenly became cool to fly the St. George's cross without being labelled a racist), and you get threads like this on every forum I read, from ARRSE to homedad.uk.

Now a Prime Minister from Scotland looks and sounds like a foreigner, and the policies of Alex Salmond sound like the barking of dogs, for all the relevance they have to my life. Things have changed, and whoever adapts to the changes the quickest will be the most successful over the next 20 years.
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Post by Andy H »

All the independent data that I’ve seen concerning the economic realities of an independent Scotland in the 21st Century would worry me if I were living in a Scotland that could become independent.

Regards
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Post by Qvist »

And therefore you can't say they're different things, because their identity IS their statehood...or someone having taken that statehood away. Or having regained it - usually by their own efforts.
Well, "statehood" is normally a rather inflexible and even juridical term, denoting quite simply the possession of citizenship in the state in question. In my opinion it is obvious that this is not neccessarily connected with national identity in the sense discussed here, which may tend to be a bit obscured by the widespread use of the word "nationality" in the sense of "possesses citizenship in".

Also, I think Sid has a very obvious point when he observes that nationality is essentially a state of mind. But it depends somewhat on the circumstances. Broadly, people fall into one of three categories:

1) People whose families sare solely or overwhelmingly from the same ethnic and cultural background, and who lives in a place where this ethnic group clearly dominates

2) People whose families come from a significantly mixed background and who live in a place where there are several ethnic and cultiural groups of comparable size and influence

3) People whose families are solely or overwhelmingly from the same ethnic and cultural background, but who lives in a place where this ethnic group is a realtively small minority

In the case of Group 1, the question of national identity will normally be self-evident. Norwegians or Icelanders living in Norway or Iceland would be examples, as would a German whose whole family has lived in Berlin for 3 generations. In other words - their family background and residence offers a more or less automatic identity, and alternatives can only be found at the point of absurdity - either by assuming a nationality to which it is obvious that the person has no real claim (such as Olafur Olafsson, from a long line of Reykjavik fishermen, deciding that he is French while continuing to live on Iceland), or by inventing a new national identity based on regionality that will in practice be difficult to sustain because it is ultimately futile to consider yourself as belonging to something that virtually nobody belives exists (such as Dieter Müller from Berlin insisting on considering himself a Prussian and not a German). For people who fall into this group, nationality will only be an issue to the extent that that the national identity that he is more or less automatically offered is in itself problematical. Belgians is a case in point - if you are clearly of Flemish descent, you can with comparable credibility consider yourself Belgian or Flemish, or for that matter you can consider yourself both, and regard them as complementary identities.

Major point: That nationality is a state of mind doesn't mean that everyone can choose whatever nationality they want. We are offered a limited choice, defined largely by circumstances beyond our control. In order to credibly claim a given nationality a person must fulfil certain criteria, normally connected with language, descent and residence, if not neccessarily all of them. In many, perhaps most, cases the issue of national identity is more or less self-evident.

However, if Group 1 chiefly demonstrates the limitations in the concept of nationality as a chosen indentity without falsifying it, then Group 2 illustrates the indispensability of the concept. Into this group would fall, for example, a German speaker of mixed descent living in Czechoslovakia, or a Russian speaking Latvian citizen with one latvian and one russian parent. They each of them have two clear options available to them. The two are Czech and Latvian by statehood and residence, but German and Russian by language - and mixed by descent. There is no viable objective grounds in either of these cases for placing any of these people into one national group or the other - they will be what they choose to be. A characteristic that sets them apart from Group 1 (f.e. the Belgians) is that they have no "third option". "Belgian" can be regarded as a national identity that supersedes "Flemish" and "Walloon" without contradicting either of them. "Czechoslovak" or "Latvian" doesn't. As with so many things in this field, there is no strictly logical reason for it, just that nobody thinks of f.e. "Latvian" as a nationality that encompasses both ethnic latvians and ethnic russians living in Latvia, at least not yet. With a sufficiently long time perspective, there will even be a choice for people who don't come of mixed descent if they live in a place that offers several possible identities. For example, two or three hundred years ago in Central Europe, nationality was largely a linguistic issue and decided largely on social grounds. If you lived in Prague and was a merchant, you spoke German. In most cases your family would then still be speaking German in 1930, but it may have been as Czech as 2 beers for lunch when the nationality shift took place.

Now, the authorities can (and do) sometimes apply criteria that links nationality to statehood, such as when Czechoslovakia defined everyone with German as their mother tongue as Germans, deprived them of statehood and expelled them after the war. That however concerns their legal status as citizens of the state. It is more than questionable in my opinion if such a judgment really constitutes a valid definition of nationality. But it does go to show that it is possible for the questions of statehood and national identity to overlap and even to clash, which illustrates another basic point: While national identity is essentially distinct from statehood (and from "nationality" in the technical sense of citizenship), they are not neccessarily unconnected. Again, it all depends on circumstances.

Group 3 raises another set of issues, namely a majority identity versus a minority identity. That can be due to immigration, or to a long established ethnic pattern at the place of residence. The son of an Indian immigrant family in London has both Indian and British available to him as possible identities. A Catalan can regard himself as either Catalonian or Spanish in their nationality. They differ from from Group 2 mainly in that the choice has some different connotations. In the former case, a clear choice of nationality implies either cutting yourself off from your family and cultural roots, or defining yourself as essentially a stranger in the place you have lived all of your life. In the latter case, a clear choice implies either aligning yourself with a minority cultural identity (which may be, according to taste and circumstance, either a source of fierce pride or an object of shame) or with a majority one. It is perhaps not surprising that by far the most usual choice is to accept the uneasy compromise of seeing oneself as belonging to both.

Basic conclusion: To the extent that an individual has more than one option open to him in the question of national identity, there is essentially no other basis than the choice of that individual. And there is almost always more than just two, clear-cut options. In short - national identity is impacted by circumstance, but essentially as flexible and as much a question of choice as any other type of human identity.

And additionally, there is a huge amount of flexibility in the concept beyond anything that is impacted by personal choice, which further illustrates that there isn't really any essentially logical or objective grounds for defining what constitutes a nation and what doesn't - the only criteria is really is whether or not people think of themselves as a nation, and this is again a product both of collective choice and historical development. Take Austria and Switzerland. If someone had asked German-speaking Austrians what their nationality were a hundred years ago, almost everyone would have answered "German". At that point virtually nobody thought of austrian as being a nationality, it was a statehood, and Herr Professor Müller of Vienna thought of himself as German in the same way as his colleagues in Munich as far as that issue was concerned, though he would certainly have regarded himself as Austrian in any issue where political allegiance or statehood was concerned. This is no longer the case. Today, most Austrians regard themselves as belonging to a different nation than the Germans. This is the result of historical experience, above all of the postwar decades when an austrian identity was built around the reconstruction of the country, during which it acquired a number of distinct traits. They could have done that without beginning to think of themselves as Austrians by nationality, but they didn't, so they are.

The Swiss are of course an even clearer example. No objective definition of nationality that includes ethnicity or language could possibly regard Swiss as a nationality, since they are all either German, French or Italian by descent and language (OK, except for the tiny Rhaeto-Romanic inority). Nevertheless, the Swiss do regard themselves as a nation, and so does everyone else.

Finally, just to show how enormously flexible the nationality concept is, there's France. In the whole post-revolutionary era, the French consciously chose to espouse a concept of nationality that rejected ethnicity as a criterion. In principle, "Frenchness" was open to anyone residing in France who accepted the constitution and the principles of the state - in other words, in much the same liberal tradition as America, nationality was essentially turned into a question of adherence to a set of philosophical and political principles, and consciously left "open". This can with some justification be considered a major alternative approach to whole question of nationality. It is often forgotten that it was for many years the dominant one, and that it has more often than not co-existed with the ethnicity-based concept of nationality that we today tend to take for granted, however illogical that seems.

cheers
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Qvist, you're not wrong - which is the point I was trying to make to Sid -
But it depends somewhat on the circumstances
...and each set is different. Sid was making a categorical statement, which was not correct to do.
That nationality is a state of mind doesn't mean that everyone can choose whatever nationality they want.
Really? :wink: "Ich bin Ein Berliner" comes to mind...even though I didn't know pastries could qualitfy for citizenship :D

The flexibility you're talking about is what I was saying to Sid; the examples I used were negatives to his categorical statement, I hadn't progressed on to ALL the different circumstances there are.
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Post by Qvist »

Hello Phylo,

Well, I sort of got started from the observation that contrary to what you wrote, a national identity isn't statehood. On that point Sid is IMO perfectly correct when he is categorical - a national identity is never a statehood, they merely often converge. The statehood of a French Jew in 1900 is French, the diaspora doesn't enter into it. Austrian is both a statehood and a nationality, but an Austrian who moves to Switzerland and becomes a Swiss citizen is still Austrian in his national identity though he is Swiss in statehood. You not only can separate national identity from statehood, they are essentially two different things. The first is an identity, the second a legal status. But I think you are right that on the whole we don't see the larger issue very differently.

Or does my English skills let me down here? "Statehood" can be applied to individual people, can't it?

cheers
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