Isaac Asimov's Super Quiz!

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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:48 am

The problem is - he's right. Mind you so does the Bible - if you happen to be a Philistine, an Egyptian, a Roman....or just a plain good ol' Gentile.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Paulus II
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Post by Paulus II » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:39 am

In a way he is right. And it applies to many (if not all!) religions to some degree.
Problem is that actions like these make the divide between ethnic groups even larger, Iran and Egypt have complained so there are international complications and it puts an even bigger strain on freedom of speech, assembly and religion than there already is.
Provocations like these don't help to solve a problem, they only help to make it even bigger.

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Post by phylo_roadking » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:50 am

....or throw a light on it, instead of it being repeatedly brushed under the carpet?

And is he being proactive....or REactive? If he's reacting to how things ARE, and problems that are already there....then there's an issue with Iran and Egypt getting involved - because they're asking YOU the Dutch people to accept those problems....and shut up... :?
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Post by Reb » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:25 am

Perhaps it is time to admit that thowing open the borders of the first world to the third was catastrophically stupid.

We cannot help them if they overwhelm us. And that is just what is happening.

The very tolerance we preach is anathema to many. That same tolerance puts them in striking distance of us.

We need to put ourselves first or we all go under. Its ugly to say that but that is the only solution I see. Our social services are allready over burdened and we have scant need for un educated workers who ultimately stand around on the corners of our cities, sucking down our substance, and seething...

What is coming is much uglier than simply closing our borders (the sensible option) and will have far reaching implications.

I'm amused that many think the US will be the first to go that route - I'm looking at Europe's history and thinking "oh boy - this is going to get terminal quickly..."

Germany, France and England seem pretty swishy to Americans these days but I think that attitude is a mistake. All three can get pretty radical when push comes to shove and I'm betting that shove is coming.

We're all tolerant until somebody starts telling us what to do. And the Muslims are champions at that. Unlike Christians who will fuss about morality (but not kill you) the Muslims (or a significant number of them - typically the un or underemployed youth) are quite willing to kill you to get their way. (in ignorance- what they really want is jobs and self respect)

And then after they have turned our countries in to the same kind of hell hole they left - what is next? Outer space? Oh...i forgot - you need us to get there. Guess the world just turns into a big sand box and we all sit around waiting for somebody to show up with the goodies. And that somebody will be long gone...

Given third world propensities for violence and our pathetically incompetant leadership in the first world I'm not sanguine about the future.

cheers
Reb

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Paulus II
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Post by Paulus II » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:04 pm

Phylo, the problem is not brushed under the carpet anymore. During the nineties when the problems with failing integration (by a minority of the ethnic minorities) started to become evident, politicians and the media did their best to brush it under the carpet and succeeded in maintaining the rule of political correctness.
Over the past six to seven years the discussion about the failing integration is on just about everybody's agenda and everybody agrees something has to be done with even the leftist parties wanting to come down hard on the muslim extremists. The soft approach is by now only advocated by some splinter do-gooder groups.
The passages in the Koran that call out for violence are identified and well known. It is forbidden to quote them in the mosque's or incite hate in any other way or place based on those texts. Mosque's have been shut down for violating this rule.
People threatened by extremists are protected and extremists are being brought to trial. With varying success so far but at least it's a beginning.
The general public is aware of the problem and will no longer take too much crap when it comes to living according to our values.
A majority of the ethnic minorities agrees with this. Serious people, hard at work to better themselves and their (=our) society. Valuable assets to that same society.

The problem with this politician is that he is neither proactive nor reactive, his motives are entirely selfserving.
Though he plays quite well on certain fears he has found that the more he radicalises himself the more media attention he will get, and any attention is -of course- good attention. By now he is almost as extreme as the muslim extremists.
Over the few years that he has been active all he has done is throw more fuel on a fire that everybody has already noticed.
This guy is not a visionary but a very little man.

The Iranian comment on the wanted banning of the Koran was very mild, not a real protest, and put in a wording that appears to be meant in a constructive manner. I was highly amazed when I read it, hadn't expected anything like this at all from Iran. Still don't trust them though!
The Egyptians do really protest and condemn. Fukkem.

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Post by phylo_roadking » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:21 pm

The problem with THIS is that you're not "banning" the mouths that would speak them and preach them. it doesn't matter if there's a ban on reading them...if they're talked about and discussed. And by reactively banning them...you add MORE fuel to their fire of being God's chosen and persecuted people.

The problem with a spiral is its exactly that - it spirals up and up one obvious step at a time. The party on the defensive...never thinks to move one or two steps up the spiral at a time, and cut in WAY beyond where the extremeists are ready to react in turn.

A moslem extremist imam wwants to preach a religion based on those forbidden verses? You don't ban him. You don't close the mosque. You lift those people who knowingly went to listen to him preach those and give them the choice to return to an environment where that is welcome - or adapt to an environment where it is not.

That's the mistake thats made and has been made with every soprt of extremeism ever - you try to stifle the message, and thus kick off the persecution/martyrdom complex. For ANY religious or political belief.

The secret is NOT in the message - its in the minds of those who are receptive and listening. Never remove the message - remove the audience....
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Post by Reb » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:24 pm

Paulus

"The Egyptians do really protest and condemn. Fukkem"

From your comment I wondered if you were aware of that school in Egypt - that university named after the famous Egyptian King. I'm speaking of course of the college known as "Farouk U." :D

cheers
reb

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Paulus II
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Post by Paulus II » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:28 pm

Aye Reb, I'm aware 8)

Phylo, my personal stance on a solution to extremists is quite different from the current official stance. Personally I think that it is not the message itself that should be condemned but that here is a certain type of people that will use a cause, any cause, to gain power over others and people susceptible to their message of hatred and violence based on only a few lines in the texts that describe that cause.
When talking about Islamic Extremists the religion itself is really just a sideshow. The actual debate is not on religion but on psychological, sociological and economical issues.
That notion is starting to dawn here and there. As usually happens when a problem announces itself people tend to react in a repressive way (and take that to extremes in some cases) and only after some time will a constructive solution be sought.
The extreme repression is embodied by that one politician, antagonising 800.000 decent people that happen to be muslim in order to get rid of a few tens of thousands potential extremists.
By now the first tentative initiatives are taken to talk to the ones that are likely to get carried away by the extremists just because they are disgruntled over other things.
That is not thanks to our fine and dandy repressive politician (he lacks the insight and the moral fibre to think that far ahead) but thanks to reason coming back after a period when too many people wanted nothing but harsh methods.
This problem and its solution are still evolving toward the solution. That takes time. Maybe too much time but maybe not.

"Never remove the message - remove the audience...."
Exactly. Just hope that the intertwined motives of politicians, media and general dumbness...oops, general public really do take over that one and it doesn't stop with the few initiatives being taken now.

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Re: Isaac Asimov's Super Quiz!

Post by Ronald Lameck » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:28 am

I recognise that I am YEARS late on this "quiz" - just noticed it. It IS flawed - e.g. - on Cod Wars (which one - or do you get extra bonus to cite all?) and use of poison gas. In terms of actual use of a gas as a weapon on a mass scale, the German Army tried chlorine on the East Front in Poland in Feb. 1915. Because of the weather and wind, it had neglible effect. They used it again on 22 April 1915 by Ypres. It caused the French Colonial troops to scatter. 1st Canadian Division had to "dress left" and cover the abandoned front as well as its own. It was later Mentioned in Despatches as having "saved the situation."

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