War in Georgia

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Benoit Douville
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War in Georgia

Post by Benoit Douville »

The separatist region of South Ossetia and Abkhasia are at War right now, I have a bad feeling about this War, this could escalate in a lot violence, it already did:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550804.stm
phylo_roadking
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by phylo_roadking »

As of tonight, things are just a little bit worse - Georgia has according to BBCNews24 declared war on Russia this evening. And Russia has rejected a Georgian-suggested ceasefire. I'm not sure if this happened before or after the declaration.

Is Georgia - like the Ukraine - an "inherited" nuclear power?
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by phylo_roadking »

The Russians have just bombed Tblisi International Airport. Given that they're supposed to "keeping the peace" IN South Ossetia...bombing towns on the SOUTHERN border of Georgia, ports on the Black Sea and now the Georgian capital are just a tad far away from South Ossetia for credibility...
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Volgadon
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by Volgadon »

The thing is, Russia isn't acting purely, or even primarily, out of concern for the Ossetians. They seized on a convenient opportunity to show Georgia what it gets for joining NATO. Pour encourager aus le autres. If the USA doesn't intervene, then both they and the Ukraine will realise the futility of defying Moscow. The Ukrainians are especially worried that Russia will move to sieze the Donbass ad Crimea. They hadn't seriously thouhgt that they would attack Georgia, what with ongoing troubles in Chechnya.
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by Uncle Joe »

Well, to put it bluntly, Russia has far greater right to be in Georgia than USA to be in Iraq unless Iraq has been moved to American continent.
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by Volgadon »

Actually, Russia has no right to be in Georgia. It is a seperate state, not even part of the same confederation, which it was during Soviet times.
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by phylo_roadking »

No, in terms of international law the Russians have no right to be there - and I can speak from living in a similar "state" where ALL citizens enjoy the right of dual citizenship...

Since the South Ossetians began to move away from Georgia, Russia has been issuing South Ossetians with Russian passports. NOW it's their claim that they're intervening to protect "Russians" - however, South Ossetia is STILL an integral part of Georgia, leaving aside the whole issue of de facto self rule or not.

Its an exact parallel of the situation HERE in Ireland since 1921 - all citizens of Northern Ireland have the legal right to both British AND Irish passports...but that does not give and never HAS given the Irish government the legal right under international law to physically intrude on British sovereign territory to "protect" or in fact do ANYTHING for "Irish" passport holders.

Like it or not - Russian forces do not have the legal right to intrude on another nation's sovereign territory - no matter what the South Ossetians think of that border. They could have mainted SOME legitimacy IF they had held back their efforts to JUST within the boundaries of South Ossetia - there is considerable precedence for the UN or forces operating under a UN mandate intervening BY FORCE to establish pece in a debated territory - the seperatist state of Katanga in mid-1960's Belgian Congo for example...but they have engaged in military action beyond the limits of the area they have expressed their non-mandated intention to act as peacekeepers in. THEY set limits on their actions, that had a minimum of conceivable and perceived legality - THEN they stepped beyond that. The actions BEYOND the de facto borders of South Ossetia are acts of war against Georgia.

Regarding the US - I'm afraid real-world politics DOES mean that they need to DO something, and do it fast. But The Lame Duck isn't going to. By NOW we should have been seeing C-5s unloading Patriots at the airport at Tblisi, or boxes and boxes of Stingers and Dragons. Perhaps THIS is why the Russians bombed the airport last night...is there another runway in Georgia capable of landing C-5s???
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by Volgadon »

Very perceptive post, Phylo. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by Uncle Joe »

Then could you explain under which international law US has the right be in Iraq??? Or Afghanistan? Or why was Kosovo allowed independence while South Ossetia not? To put it even more bluntly, what was the US reaction when the USSR tried to establish a missile base close to US borders? What was it? Georgia is potentially exactly the same for Russia as Cuba was for the Amis.
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by John Kilmartin »

I can't see the difference between the Russians bombing the Georgian capital to protect Ossetians and NATO bombing the Serb capital to protect Albanian-Kossavars.
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by phylo_roadking »

I can't see the difference between the Russians bombing the Georgian capital to protect Ossetians and NATO bombing the Serb capital to protect Albanian-Kossavars.
Then could you explain under which international law US has the right be in Iraq???
Though to a degree arguably in the case of the second - in the case of the first...UN Mandate.
Or why was Kosovo allowed independence while South Ossetia not?
Who exactly "allowed" Kosovo to have independence...?
what was the US reaction when the USSR tried to establish a missile base close to US borders? What was it? Georgia is potentially exactly the same for Russia as Cuba was for the Amis.
Is either Georgia or the US planning to install nuclear weapons in Georgia? How many military or civilian Russian or Cuban casualties resulted from US military action during the Cuban Missile Crisis? :[] Did the US intrude on Cuban waters? I believe the Cuban blockade took place in international waters BEFORE the Russians had the political refuge of Cuban coastal waters. The US did what the Russians did not do here - keep themselves in the right with the eyes of the world upon them. It doesn't matter if the motives of what they did were "right" or "wrong" - a good helping of luck, and they themselves, kept them in the right while doing it :wink:

And that exact same statement applies to NATO and American actions in the Balkans - whatever the motives, they kept themselves in the right while doing it.

THAT'S the difference here and that's my problem with this. IF the Russians had moved into South Ossetia as the "peacekeepers" they said they were, and didn't intrude into Georgia -they remained in the de facto right in regards to the local circumstance of the events IN South Ossetia....then tough sh1t, Georgia :down: BUT last night, today - and tonight they have NOW apparently gone even further and Russian armour is now physically IN Georgia, though I presume we'll have to wait for local daytime to have that confirmed - they physically invaded the territory of another nation.

I'm not taking sides on this; if anyone reads my posts through this forum they'll realise I don't think either the US or the UK should be in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you may have missed THIS...

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=24805

The Rusians have simply done a rubbish job at gaining and keeping whatever moral high ground there was in any of this. They threw it away on the first night and made themselves aggressors, not peacekeepers in the local circumstances. With the potential AND THE NUMBERS AND THE CAPABILITY to achieve their STATED aim AND to have kept themselves in the right - you have to wonder therefore WHY they've acted as they have :wink: and as time passes and they push further and harder it increasingly looks as if their motives are not pure and shining white in this. They're busy proving the case against themselves.
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by Uncle Joe »

Get in the right? You must be joking. You are damn well aware of the extensive civilian death toll caused by Nato´s actions over Kosovo so don´t, DON´T, try to talk about right here.

And is threatening to launch nuclear first strike "in the right" to you? That was the true US reaction over Cuba. Besides, who gave the Amis the right to dictate which weapons Cubans may or may not have?
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by Hans »

A grave situation to be sure. However did any right thinking individual ever believe that Russia would not attempt to regain its erstwhile satelites some time in the future. Georgia is a test case, if Russia succeeds pity the other smaller states and then good-bye Ukraine. Trouble is who is going to preach to the Russians, when they the Russians are simply doing what the western aggressor nations have been doing for years.

Just a thought.

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Re: War in Georgia

Post by phylo_roadking »

Get in the right? You must be joking. You are damn well aware of the extensive civilian death toll caused by Nato´s actions over Kosovo so don´t, DON´T, try to talk about right here.
US-backed actions over Kosovo came AFTER almost a full decade of genocide and ethnic cleansing in the region, one statelet by another. The NATO intervention was to prevent another round of massacres, after the European-backed peacekeeping force proved totally ineffectual, with the British UKFOR having to literally stand back and watch events unfold at Srenbrenice and so many other places. The US did it because noone else could, after various other parties had tried and failed to prevent genocide in the former Yugoslavia.

Frankly - I didn't bring that whole aspect into here first. Internationally-backed and CALLED-FOR action to prevent genocide is not what's happening in Georgia/South Ossetia.
And is threatening to launch nuclear first strike "in the right" to you?
Actually - if you read I said they did what they did WHILE keeping themselves in the right. I didn't say that what they DID was right - or wrong. Take a VERY close look at the terms of the Hague Conventions and those sections incorporated in the 1949 Geneva Convention. The US stated a text book "Conditional Declaration of War" - that a state of war would exist IF the Russians pursued a particular course of action. Strangely enough, whether you like it or not, they were legally in the right to do as they did. It was EXACTLY the same as the UK giving Hitler at 9AM on Sunday, the 3rd of September 1939 an ultimatum to withdraw from Poland by 11am...and that a state of war would exist IF Germany did not comply. We all know what the result was.
Trouble is who is going to preach to the Russians, when they the Russians are simply doing what the western aggressor nations have been doing for years.
Then again - the Russians have ALSO been simply doing this for years. The Russians' excuse for action in South Ossetia is that the Georgians last week moved militarily to quash the seperatist South Ossetia...and were wrong to do so. Which is EXACTLY what Russia did in Chechnya in the 1990s :shock: It's funny how the rules change when it in the RUSSIANS' favour for them to do so...

As for "protecting Russian citizens"...what sovereign nation merrily hands out passports and citizenship to citizens of ANOTHER nation WITHOUT a settlement on dual citizenship in place between the two nations??? :shock: The Russians manufactured a "Russian" population in South Ossetia in the space of a couple of years - in the middle of another nation - to intervene on the behalf of...

Nor is THIS a new tactic...Just HOW German and militant were the Sudeten Germans in the 1920s and EARLY 1930s...? Or how "German" and militant were the Volkdeutsch in Eastern POLAND until 1938-39...???

The REALLY disappointing thing is that the Kremlin seems to be taking lessons on nationalism from Nazi Germany rather than the huge textbook of political NON-nationalist machinations left by the Communist Era...
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Re: War in Georgia

Post by phylo_roadking »

Russian forces do now appear to be across the boundary of South Ossetia and approaching the Georgian town of Gori...and the Russians have confirmed they are in Georgian territory OUTSIDE the boundaries of Abkhazia and attacking the town of Senaki - both moves that are beyond their original stated intention.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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