Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

German Heer 1935-1945.

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Michael Dorosh
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Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by Michael Dorosh » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:10 am

A search found me this:

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=30958

On junior officer training, I wonder if I might ask a similar question on NCO training.

Trying to confirm my understanding after basic reading in the usual English language sources (US Army Handbook on German Forces, Osprey titles, some translated auto-biographies, and a quick-and-dirty web search). Apologies if this is covered in detail somewhere on the site/forum - a link would be appreciated if so.

Note - this is all as of the summer of 1944:

As I understand it, a German soldier would serve in the rank of Grenadier (Kanonier, Funker etc.) until either

a) he was recognized as having merit for promotion to an NCO rank (i.e. Unteroffizier), in which case he as promoted to the rank of Gefreiter, generally a period of 6 months?

b) he was recognized as having little prospect for further advancement, in which case after one year of service, he would be advanced to Obergrenadier (Oberkanonier, Oberfunker, etc.)

After two years of service, his service would be recognized by promotion to the rank of Obergefreiter, and at the five year mark, if he had still not been promoted to NCO rank, he would be made a Stabsgefreiter.

Is this essentially correct?

Now, at some point in this progression, my understanding is further that he might be selected as an Unteroffizierbewerber (per the 1943 redesignation). As such he would continue to be employed in his current rank, trade, and unit. He would wear a loop of NCO braid on his shoulder straps to indicate his status, until such time as he could be sent back to an established NCO school.

Again, is this essentially correct? Did the soldier have to serve some kind of probationary period as an Unteroffizierbewerber? What was the purpose of identifying him with a uniform mark? Did he perform leadership tasks before being sent to NCO school? Was he required to act in this capacity for a minimum period or at a minimum rank? Did he have command authority over his peers?

I guess the most important question - is there anyplace I can go to read further in detail about this, either online, or a good book in English that can be recommended?

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haen2
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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by haen2 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:22 pm

The "by the book" getting ready to become an Unteroffizier or Unterscharführer, method dates from before to the beginning of WWII.
At the last part of it there were many fieldpromotions, where the aspirant never went to a training centre.
For example: I was "promoted to Unterscharfüher" about two weeks before the surrender, there was no bekleidungskammer, nor tailors who could or would change the uniform. I got several inches of silver braid, and like the "anwärter" from before, just looped it around my shoulderboards. My men knew who and what I was, and the staff knew also. It sufficed.
I also was told by my C.O. that I would have been sent to a Führerschule, had there be enough time and a way to get there. As it was we were completely close in. Oh well. Sic transit gloria mundi.
Just a memory of a "has been". :( :wink:
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Michael Dorosh
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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by Michael Dorosh » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:32 pm

haen2 wrote:The "by the book" getting ready to become an Unteroffizier or Unterscharführer, method dates from before to the beginning of WWII.
At the last part of it there were many fieldpromotions, where the aspirant never went to a training centre.
For example: I was "promoted to Unterscharfüher" about two weeks before the surrender, there was no bekleidungskammer, nor tailors who could or would change the uniform. I got several inches of silver braid, and like the "anwärter" from before, just looped it around my shoulderboards. My men knew who and what I was, and the staff knew also. It sufficed.
I also was told by my C.O. that I would have been sent to a Führerschule, had there be enough time and a way to get there. As it was we were completely close in. Oh well. Sic transit gloria mundi.
Just a memory of a "has been". :( :wink:
HN
Thank you for the reply!

Excellent - I suspected that may have been the case.

Would "local" NCO courses have been common? i.e. in divisional rear areas, Training and Replacement Battalions, etc.? With the knowledge that sending men to the centralized NCO schools was not possible, I guess I'm asking if formations at the division level would have felt a need or desire to take things into their own hands. For example, the photos of the Grossdeutschland's field-expedient anti-tank close combat "school" are well-known.

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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by ljadw » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:39 am

You could look at :
Auswahl und Ausbildung junger Offiziere

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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by Michael Dorosh » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:59 am

ljadw wrote:You could look at :
Auswahl und Ausbildung junger Offiziere
I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me.

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haen2
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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by haen2 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:43 pm

Hello again,
Just had a flashback. There was indeed a Regimental or Divisional training set up in Apeldoorn in about December 1944, but it was of course abandoned early 1945 when the Canadians crossed the Ijssel river and created a pocket.
This is not an ironclad memory, just a "flashback".
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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by ljadw » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:38 pm

Michael Dorosh wrote:
ljadw wrote:You could look at :
Auswahl und Ausbildung junger Offiziere
I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me.
If you had looked on the source,you would know :it is a university thesis about the selection (auswahl) and instruction (ausbildung) of young army,navy and LW officers between 1930/1945,with a lot of usefull stats .Better does not exist .
Is is in German,but translation means are available in 2012.

Michael Dorosh
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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by Michael Dorosh » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:44 pm

ljadw wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
ljadw wrote:You could look at :
Auswahl und Ausbildung junger Offiziere
I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me.
If you had looked on the source,you would know :it is a university thesis about the selection (auswahl) and instruction (ausbildung) of young army,navy and LW officers between 1930/1945,with a lot of usefull stats .Better does not exist .
Is is in German,but translation means are available in 2012.
There was no source, just five words in a foreign language.

As a courtesy, you might have done this:

Auswahl und Ausbildung junger Offiziere

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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by ljadw » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:03 am

This is what I did

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Die Blechtrommel
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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by Die Blechtrommel » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:37 am

ljadw wrote:This is what I did
:roll:
Michael included the link, also. :up:

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Oscar :beer:
“Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch !!“

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Re: Non-Commissioned Officer progression ca 1944

Post by ljadw » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:11 am

Beer in Finland ? That's bizar .

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