The Heer and the Party

German Heer 1935-1945.

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Hans Weber
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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by Hans Weber » Tue May 20, 2008 1:35 pm

Hello Sid

Now I’m really disappointed. I asked for proof that the Waffen SS was expanded “because of the Nazi Regime was nervous about the Heer being a centre of power it couldn’t control”.

Besides your own unfounded interpretations (I thought I made it clear that I didn't want another dose of this), all that you seem to come up with substantial is Erlass 17.8.1938.

Compared to the act by Blomberg dated September 1934, this edict is remarkable in that it for the first time clearly states the military ambitions by the SS and doesn’t limit itself to duties of inner security. That this military aspect is directed against the outer enemy is made clear by that the Waffen SS being ngaged in the cadre of the Army (die mobile Verwendung im Rahmen des Kriegsheeres), subordinated to the Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht. Both roles have obviously become equal. The Erlass 17.8,1938 thus is an invalid argument for your case in that it doesn’t limit the the Waffen SS to innerpolitical control functions, but adds a military component to its tasks while at the same time making it part of the organisation you pretend it was supposed to control. The sheer folly of such a claim is obvious.

The Erlass 17.8.1938 legitimizes the Waffen SS to have 4 separate Standarten (Regiments), 2 mobile Battalions, a pionier Battalion, signals and medics. This is as far as it went for the Waffen SS before the war started. How anybody could seriously think that with this force the Nazi Regime would be in position to control the Wehrmacht is beyond my comprehension.
Never it's existence did the Waffen-SS exceeded 10% of the whole Wehrmacht. You call this a counterweight, I don’t.

Why did Himmler put so much effort in the gaining foreign volunteers already in 1938 (Ich habe wirklich die Absicht, germanisches Blut in der ganzen Welt zu holen, zu rauben und zu stehlen wo ich kann, Himmler 8.11.1938) if the role of the Waffen SS was only been seen as a protection for the Regime in the sense of a military police force? That’s absurd. Wiking, Nordland, Skanderberg etc. the raised to protect the Führer against his Army?

The expansion of the Waffen SS peaked in mid 1944. That’s at the same time the Heer had lost any (small) political influence it ever enjoyed and the core elements of the Waffen SS had become indispensable to maintain the war effort, especially on the Western Front. There was certainly no reason for the Nazi Regime to fear the influence of the Heer at this time. As long as the Führer was alive, the Heer the vast majority of its officers were loyal not to the party maybe, but certainly to him. That’s what “apolitical” stands for here, BTW. This is proven by the fact that surrender took place only after he was dead, and the at the best marginal impact the assassination attempt had on the stability of the regime. So also by considering when the bigger part of the expansion took place, the is no reason to believe it was to counter the Heer.

I’m sorry to say but you have to do better than this to "establish" anything to me here.

Cheers
Hans

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Hans
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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by Hans » Tue May 20, 2008 4:38 pm

Hi Sid,

I repeat, were the foreigners in the SS more loyal than the Germans in the Army?

Are you not attributing "How many divisions has the Pope?" to the wrong guy? This was said by Stalin when he, on the 13 May 1935 was urged by Pierre Laval to tolerate Catholicism in the USSR to appease the Pope.
Source: W.S.Churchill, The Second World War, Vol.I, Ch. 8.

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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by sid guttridge » Wed May 21, 2008 1:55 am

Hi Hans,

I have no idea. What measure do you propose to test whether foreigners in the Waffen-SS were more loyal than Germans in the Army? And loyal to what? Hitler? The NSDAP? Their armed service? Their own country? A Germanic Reich?

Yup, you are right about Stalin. Thanks for the correction.

What one has to establish is why the Waffen-SS was given an added military role in the first place. Was there some proven professional inadequacy in the German Army that only an unproven Waffen-SS could remedy? If so, what qualified the Waffen-SS to do so?

What do you think distinguished the Waffen-SS from the Army?

I think you will find that almost everything of significance that distinguishes the Waffen-SS from the Army was on the political, not military, level.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Liam
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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by Liam » Thu May 22, 2008 6:05 am

The Heer could easily have ignored the existence of the Waffen SS in 1939 and 1940 except for the fact that they offered a major increase of the amount of motorised troops that were available to fight alongside the vital Panzers. Surely the expansion of the Waffen SS is as much a reflection of their value to the Heer as their political reliability?
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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by Tom Houlihan » Thu May 22, 2008 6:41 am

Liam wrote: Surely the expansion of the Waffen SS is as much a reflection of their value to the Heer as their political reliability?
I'd say more a function of Reichsheini trying to ensure "bragging rights" for his SS in the post-war years.
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Liam
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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by Liam » Thu May 22, 2008 6:49 am

And the fact that he wanted his future police force (AKA the SS) to have some sort of authority that only combat veterans (which Himmler was most vexed about not being...) were thought to possess.
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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by Hans Weber » Thu May 22, 2008 10:26 am

Hello Tom and Liam

I agree on both the postwar perspective and the authority gained by combat experience as the major reasons for the expansion. As the Heer was expanded, the Waffen SS had to keep pace somehow not to be considered of no importance. This considerably strained the organisation and led to a very hetergenous picture in origin of manpower, their quality, the quality of officers and combat performance. In effect it diluted the "elite" aspect the Waffen SS was never shy to claim for itself.

Cheers
Hans

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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by tigre » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:55 pm

Hello to all :D; more............

With the Military High Command!

Source: https://www.aboutww2militaria.com/en/ja ... eeres.html

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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AH greeting Reich Minister of War Generalfeldmarschall v. Blomberg.....................
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Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.

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tigre
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Re: The Heer and the Party

Post by tigre » Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:59 am

Hello to all :D; more............

Visit of the Fuehrer.

Source: Jungen - eure Welt! Das Jahrbuch der Hitlerjugend. Herausgegeben von Wilhelm Utermann. Pour Jahrgang 1941

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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The Führer updating himself on the situation, from the left Rommel, ??, AH, ??, Keitel and ??........................
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Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.

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