I found a mention of 5 Panthers being deployed on 14th August (1944) in the area Tournebu-Martainville (just W of Clair Tizon between Laize and Orne). Together with the 102nd sSSPzAbt. they supported the 271st Inf.Div.
Does anybody know to which unit did these Panthers belong to (i have a hunch but I'm not sure)?
Any kind of responce would be appreciated.
Marko
Panthers in Normandy
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Martin Schenkel
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Hi Marko,
According to several references from the 'Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, Vol.3: The Victory Campaign':
1. Elements of 12. SS Panzer Division are said to have counter-attacked on the 14th Aug. in the area of La Cressonnière, just south of Clair Tizon.
2. Kampfgruppe Krause (from 12. SS Panzer) was sent to support 271. Infantry on 7th Aug (though the KG was later pulled back).
3. 12. SS Panzer is listed as being in 1. SS Pz Korps reserve on 11th Aug., with 271. Inf in the line (left flank of Korps), 89. Inf (centre), and 85. Inf (right).
4. 12. SS Panzer is known to have attached liason officers with divisions in the front line in order to facilitate counter-attacks.
5. It was planned (8th Aug.) to send the Panther Bn from 9. SS Panzer (2. SS Pz Korps) to 1. SS Pz Korps, but this Bn was replaced with the 102. sSSPzAbt.
I would suggest the unit was 12. SS Panzer, though I can't specify which battalion or KG was in the area. Since the Panther Bn from 9. SS Panzer wasn't sent to 1. SS Pz Korps, I would suspect the only available Panthers would be from 12. SS.
Good luck.
Martin
According to several references from the 'Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, Vol.3: The Victory Campaign':
1. Elements of 12. SS Panzer Division are said to have counter-attacked on the 14th Aug. in the area of La Cressonnière, just south of Clair Tizon.
2. Kampfgruppe Krause (from 12. SS Panzer) was sent to support 271. Infantry on 7th Aug (though the KG was later pulled back).
3. 12. SS Panzer is listed as being in 1. SS Pz Korps reserve on 11th Aug., with 271. Inf in the line (left flank of Korps), 89. Inf (centre), and 85. Inf (right).
4. 12. SS Panzer is known to have attached liason officers with divisions in the front line in order to facilitate counter-attacks.
5. It was planned (8th Aug.) to send the Panther Bn from 9. SS Panzer (2. SS Pz Korps) to 1. SS Pz Korps, but this Bn was replaced with the 102. sSSPzAbt.
I would suggest the unit was 12. SS Panzer, though I can't specify which battalion or KG was in the area. Since the Panther Bn from 9. SS Panzer wasn't sent to 1. SS Pz Korps, I would suspect the only available Panthers would be from 12. SS.
Good luck.
Martin
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence" - Sun Tzu
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Martin Schenkel
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Marko,
The map I have indicates La Cressonière about 1000 yards south (and slighty east) of Clair Tizon, just east of the Laize. The 12. SS counter-attack on the 14th was against the Canadian bridgehead (eastern bank of the Laize) at Clair Tizon.
Martin
The map I have indicates La Cressonière about 1000 yards south (and slighty east) of Clair Tizon, just east of the Laize. The 12. SS counter-attack on the 14th was against the Canadian bridgehead (eastern bank of the Laize) at Clair Tizon.
Martin
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence" - Sun Tzu
The whole subject regarding the Hohenstaufen's Panthers is very complicated and not just during the Normandy campaign but also during the Market Garden.
I've already checked all three books (Fürbringer, Tieke, Reynolds) on the Hohenstaufen, but all of them have conflicting reports about the location of Panthers.
8th August 44:
Fürbriger mentions only the first order by which the Hohenstaufen'd Panzers should be sent to the I.SS-Pz.Korps and Tieke only the second one (102.sSSPz.Abt. instead of Hohenstaufen's Panthers).
9th August:
According to Fürbringer the Panther btn. is halted at Forret d'Ouilly (on its way to the I.SS-Pz.Korps) and ordered to be immediately sent to the 7th Army, but Eberbach intervenes and the btn. is moved to Beauchenes (more probably Beauchene - E of Ger and SW of Flers).
Until the 14th there is no mention of Panthers in all three books but Bernage (Album Memorial) states for this particular day that a few elements of the Panther btn. (Hohenstaufen) came »to plug holes« in the I.SS-Pz.Korps's sector.
According to Fürbringer on the 15th (or the 16th) August elements of the SS-Pz.Rgt.9 (including the 3rd Panther-company) plus SS-AA9 engage allied tanks near Argentan. The attack by elements of Hohenstaufen is also confirmed by Guderian (From Normandy to the Ruhr).
On 20th August Otto Meyer (commander of the SS-Pz.Rgt.9) sends two radio messages in which he requests that his panzer IVs and Vs, which are still with HJ, should immediately be returned to his command.
Martin, just one more question: is your information (regarding the HJ) coming from Herbert Meyer's book.
Regards
Marko
I've already checked all three books (Fürbringer, Tieke, Reynolds) on the Hohenstaufen, but all of them have conflicting reports about the location of Panthers.
8th August 44:
Fürbriger mentions only the first order by which the Hohenstaufen'd Panzers should be sent to the I.SS-Pz.Korps and Tieke only the second one (102.sSSPz.Abt. instead of Hohenstaufen's Panthers).
9th August:
According to Fürbringer the Panther btn. is halted at Forret d'Ouilly (on its way to the I.SS-Pz.Korps) and ordered to be immediately sent to the 7th Army, but Eberbach intervenes and the btn. is moved to Beauchenes (more probably Beauchene - E of Ger and SW of Flers).
Until the 14th there is no mention of Panthers in all three books but Bernage (Album Memorial) states for this particular day that a few elements of the Panther btn. (Hohenstaufen) came »to plug holes« in the I.SS-Pz.Korps's sector.
According to Fürbringer on the 15th (or the 16th) August elements of the SS-Pz.Rgt.9 (including the 3rd Panther-company) plus SS-AA9 engage allied tanks near Argentan. The attack by elements of Hohenstaufen is also confirmed by Guderian (From Normandy to the Ruhr).
On 20th August Otto Meyer (commander of the SS-Pz.Rgt.9) sends two radio messages in which he requests that his panzer IVs and Vs, which are still with HJ, should immediately be returned to his command.
Martin, just one more question: is your information (regarding the HJ) coming from Herbert Meyer's book.
Regards
Marko
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Martin Schenkel
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Marko,
Admittedly, the source I am using (see my first post) is somewhat lacking and fragmented in information on German units (although German documents are used as reference), as it is from the Canadian point of view, and as far as I can tell, the 271. Inf Div wasn't on the Canadian sector during these engagements.
A few more references from the same book:
1. On 9th Aug, I. SS Pz Korps tank strength: 15 PzIV, 5 PzV, 15 PzVI.
2. Tank strength on 10th Aug, is listed as 18 PzIV, 8 PzV, 17 PzVI.
3. 8th Aug (PM), 5. Panzer Armee orders all tanks in 9. SS to I. SS Pz Korps. This order was reversed, and on 9th Aug, the 102. sSSPzAbt was sent instead, and the Panther Bn of 9. SS sent to 7. Armee.
4. 85. Inf Div and 12. SS took the main brunt of the Canadian attack, 14-16 Aug.
Other than the plan to send 9. SS Panthers to I. SS Pz Korps, nothing else is mentioned about 9. SS during this period of Mid-august.
Perhaps your reference to Forest d'Ouilly might be the same as a location I have on a map as Ouilly-le-Tesson (~2 miles NE of Potigny). If this is the same location, Ouilly is definately in the Canadian sector, which would mean 9. SS Panthers would be well into 1. SS Pz Korps area.
Since 271. Inf seems to have been on the western flank of 1. SS Pz Korps (bordering 2. SS Pz Korps), it's very possible elements of 2. SS Pz Korps (such as 9. SS) went to support 271. Inf, as 12. SS was mostly commited on the eastern flank of 1. SS Pz Korps. On the other hand, 12. SS seems to have been fairly spread out within 1. SS Pz Korps, so perhaps some elements of 12. SS were in 271. Inf area.
Sorry that I can't conclusively solve your question.
Martin
Admittedly, the source I am using (see my first post) is somewhat lacking and fragmented in information on German units (although German documents are used as reference), as it is from the Canadian point of view, and as far as I can tell, the 271. Inf Div wasn't on the Canadian sector during these engagements.
A few more references from the same book:
1. On 9th Aug, I. SS Pz Korps tank strength: 15 PzIV, 5 PzV, 15 PzVI.
2. Tank strength on 10th Aug, is listed as 18 PzIV, 8 PzV, 17 PzVI.
3. 8th Aug (PM), 5. Panzer Armee orders all tanks in 9. SS to I. SS Pz Korps. This order was reversed, and on 9th Aug, the 102. sSSPzAbt was sent instead, and the Panther Bn of 9. SS sent to 7. Armee.
4. 85. Inf Div and 12. SS took the main brunt of the Canadian attack, 14-16 Aug.
Other than the plan to send 9. SS Panthers to I. SS Pz Korps, nothing else is mentioned about 9. SS during this period of Mid-august.
Perhaps your reference to Forest d'Ouilly might be the same as a location I have on a map as Ouilly-le-Tesson (~2 miles NE of Potigny). If this is the same location, Ouilly is definately in the Canadian sector, which would mean 9. SS Panthers would be well into 1. SS Pz Korps area.
Since 271. Inf seems to have been on the western flank of 1. SS Pz Korps (bordering 2. SS Pz Korps), it's very possible elements of 2. SS Pz Korps (such as 9. SS) went to support 271. Inf, as 12. SS was mostly commited on the eastern flank of 1. SS Pz Korps. On the other hand, 12. SS seems to have been fairly spread out within 1. SS Pz Korps, so perhaps some elements of 12. SS were in 271. Inf area.
Sorry that I can't conclusively solve your question.
Martin
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence" - Sun Tzu