Quality of Heer compared with Kaiser's army

[Imad]

Hello
Blumentritt, in his conversations with Liddell Hart, had mentioned that the quality of the Heer infantry of WW2 was inferior to that of the Kaiser's army in the Great War and Brauchitsch had mentioned something to that effect to Hitler for which he got shouted at for his pains.
Liddell Hart, in "The Other Side of the Hill" said other German generals vehemently denied this.
Recently I came across something in the above author's book "History of the Second World War" that seems to confirm Blumentritt's statement. Apparently Hitler, in his anxiety to get the war started, had insisted on a rapid expansion of the Heer - something the more cautious generals had advised against. They evidently wanted a more gradual expansion that would ensure a steady maintenance of good quality in the army.
At any rate Hitler did prevail, with the upshot that out of the 98 German divisions ready for combat in 1939, 10 consisted largely of men that received only a month's training while 36 contained Great War veterans in their 40s and way past their prime and not much acquainted with modern weapons and their tactics. In other words, quality apparently did suffer, just as the generals had said it would.
Any thoughts?

[Jan-Hendrik]

Well , I think Blumentritt was not so far from the truth . Instead of the Kaiserliche Heer which could use large amounts of trained reservists of CO , NCO and service men the Wehrmacht in its quick expansion had nothing comparable . The replacement system lacked from the beginning that most of the experienced personal was neccessarly employed in the frontline units ( which lead to the forming of Armee-Waffenschulen , Divisions-Kampfschulen etc. as many of the replacements sent to the front were still not fit to fight , especially in the period beginning with autumn/winter 1941 ! ) . So old reserve-officers with just WW1-experience and no further training after that had to be used as training personal , which caused a further descend in the quality of the replacements . Sure we cannot generalize this for each and every branch , but one cannot deny that even the quality of the "normal" infantrieman in 1942 was far away from the point of 1939/40 , at the quality dropped further until the bitter end as the loss of so much experienced COs and NCOs that happened during the campaign against the UDSSR was simply never to replace , even from the first 6 months of "Barbarossa".

The deeper you go with your studies regarding the Wehrmacht in WW2 the more you see that it was never prepared for a large campaign , its reactions to this fact were many , so times remarkable , improvisations ...



Jan-Hendrik

[panzerschreck1]

Very intresting J-H , is it comparable to the WSS or were they even worse off then the WH?

All the best

PS1

[Jan-Hendrik]

Well , that's an intersting but difficult to answer question as the forming of the Waffen-SS units went a totally different way than the WH ...

But I will try to make my point

The first WSS units were raised with highly motivated volunteers , after the COs and NCOs received combat experience ( and a little help by "blood transfer" in form of heer officers ) in 1939/40 ( were their overall combat was rather low comparing to the heer units . From Autumn 1941 to the first half of 1943 those first WSS units reached a high peek regarding their combat effectivity , but due to the losses , the raising of new units and having to send cadres for them , the problem of never "producing" enough qualified COs and NCOs ( equal to the Wehrmacht ) their abilities declined more and more , as much as the the WSS expanded more and more due to Himmlers phantasies . The efffect was that they never reached their peek again , and instead of the wishful thinking of Himmler and many book writers even the first divisions were far away from being "elite" in 1945

If you look at it rationally the WSS was a large waste of qualified personal , resources and equipment , a waste that Germany could not allow itself regarding the Situation this War produced for the Reich .

Jan-Hendrik

[sid guttridge]

Hi IMAD,

The Germany Army of WWII was of very mixed quality.

The year groups from 1936-40 received two years of training in the best of the stormtrooper infantry tactics developed in 1917-18 and by June 1941 had mostly spent nearly four years under arms. Most were therefore effectively regular soldiers. They were the cutting edge of the German Army in its victory years of 1939-42.

However, the year groups between 1919 and 1935 were known as the "White Years" because the Treaty of Versailles had prevented their training. On general staff coloured bar charts of annual trained manpower they were left almost empty and so appeared white - the colour of the underlying paper - hence their nickname. They were trained more hurriedly during the war years but due to age had lost fitness and motivation and were of no particular quality.

Similarly, the men of the year groups trained during WWII, although fit and motivated, could arrive at the front with as little as four months training and were not generally of the quality of the 1936-40 years.

Cheers,

Sid.

[pzrmeyer2]

Interesting discussion. As a complete aside, my great Onkel Gerhard must have been a unique individual. He entered service in the summer of '39 and fought in Poland, France, and of course, Barbarossa. He was wounded 7 times and contracted malaria. He also was awarded the EK I & II and ended up an NCO. In May '45, he was still fighting and finally gave up on the last day in Bohemia. At the end, too wounded to be put to work, he was released by the Czechs and walked the whole way back to Berlin. My mother didn't recognize him when he showed up late that summer...

My point is, I wonder how few kameraden who took part in the Polish invasion were still in the ranks at VE Day? An amazing feat, if you ask me....

[Joe Cleere]

Sid Guttridge's post is pretty much on the mark. The first wave formations, the Infantry Divisions numbered 1-46, the motorized divisions, the mountain divisions, and the Panzer divisions, were the core of the German army throughout the war and were its best divisions.
They were very good.

[Imad]

Hello Joe
Among the later formations I would also include 64, 352, and 91st ID in that category. If there were others I would love to hear about them. I believe the latter was a Luftlande division so I don't know if it would qualify as a regular unit or as a so called elite.
Note that I deliberately did not include Panzer and Fallschirm Divisionen because such things did not exist in the Great War and the comparison would have been unfair.
All the best, Imad

[Reb]

I don't recall the Kaiser's army having such an extensive mix of various types of division as the Heer.

At its best the Heer stands with the great armies of history. At its worst it still shows better than some of its antogonists but certainly nothing to write home about...

I learned in talking to WW2 vets from the Allied side that they have very mixed opinions of the German Army - usually based upon the campaigns they were in and when they entered combat. (1945 for instance they were apt to enounter a very mixed force of low quality)

cheers
Reb

[Imad]

I have had the same experience Reb. I was actually quite startled at the very different opinions that Allied vets have given me about their German opponents, and you're right, it did depend on the campaign and the time of the year.
One thing is for sure - some of the third grade units of the Wehrmacht showed themselves capable of inflicting heavy casualties on their opponents right up till the end of the war

[deradler1]

While these important revelations can be made regarding the quality of training and experience can be made for the soldiers of the Wehrmacht, the same can not be said of the airmen of the Luftwaffe.

A good portion of them had already gained combat experience in Spain. The rotation system developed gave the pilots and ground crews optimum time in theater in combat to hone their skills.

Not withstanding in 1939 they flew the most technologically advanved fighter that the world had ever known in the ME 109.