Pic from WWII of 3 uniformed guys

[cassarnold]

Hi, didn't know how else to subject this. Believe it was taken in Russia in 1940 to 1942--any ideas on uniform or context?

thanks,
cassandra

[john123]

It does look early war and that definitely appears to be a typical Russian hamlet in the background. Since one guy has a broken thumb and they all have binoculars around their necks, I am guessing they are not far from the front.

I also believe those are the early war collar patches.

[cassarnold]

Thanks much for your comment. My grandmother's brother is the guy on the right, he was killed in Russia 1942, age 35 or so.
-Cassandra

[cassarnold]

Anything you can tell me about the hats? My relative appears to have more of a cap as opposed to the other guys. Ranks?

thanks
Cassandra

[Pixieee]

Hi,

I'm not an expert but here is some information that may help you :

- They have Herr patches , so they're not SS members. Possibly a panzer unit , judging of the hat that the guy on the right (your relative) wears
- Rank. I can't see their shoulder patches, but they surely have. So they're officers. In beleive leutentants or captains (not majors or above )
- Medals. All 3 have the iron cross ( first or second class ).

They wear not any camo or heavy uniform , so probably this pic is taken in first Barbarossa stages.My guess ? Between August and September 1941

As I said , all the above is just assumptions. I hope that other members will add their opinion as well .

And someting additiional. You have to be proud of your relative. He died as a man of honour . R I P

[cassarnold]

Hi Pixieee,
Thank you for your response, it is much appreciated. My apologies in advance for being new to this research.

May I ask what is a "Herr Patch"? I tried to search for it online and did not get any results. And a Panzer unit--that is a tank unit? Any ideas on the metal emblems on the proper caps of the men on the left? All 3 also seem to have the same "wing-like" structure on their caps- I wonder if that means anything. Documents that I have say my relative was an Oberleutnant in the Reserves, but did they have reserves at that point?

thanks again,
Cassandra

[cassarnold]

Ok, now I see that the "wings" are typical for all Wehrmacht (d'uh on my part). I wish I could see the colors of the arm stripes, but obviously cannot. I found another website with close-up photos and will try to distinguish.

Again, though, a Herr patch and panzer unit?

thanks!
cassandra

[ealdwita]

The 'feldmutz' worn by the soldier on the right is an M38, and is common to most units. The Waffenfarbe is obviously not white so that rules out infantry. Many other units wore a rose pink waffenfarbe (if indeed that's what it is), but it's impossible to narrow it down any further for certain without seeing the shoulder straps clearly.

The man on the right appears to be wearing a different colour waffenfarbe to the other two.

[cassarnold]

Thank you for the cap information. That is right-on. I even found the following description online (what did we do before the internet?):

"The following regulations govern the actual wearing, or carrying, of some of the more common items of uniform and equipment used by the German soldier:
"M.38 Feldmütze--(Early war cap). Three fingers over the left ear, two fingers over the right and one finger over the right eyebrow. The Kokarde is centered with the nose. The M-38 should be pinched together at the top, not pulled down so that it looks like a "feldgrau-fez!" A safety pin can be used to pin the crown of the hat together, just like they did "back then!"

It is amazing that this is *exactly* how my relative (guy on the right) is wearing this cap, despite the fact that they are freezing in Russia. Fascinating.

(the info was from this website
http://www.reenactor.net/ww2/morsels/morsel2.htm)

cassandra

[Pixieee]

Hi,

- Herr was one of the tree main Wehramacht branches . Herr,Kriegsmarine,Luftwaffe which means Army,Navy,Air forces . So they served for the Army
- A panzer unit is , yes , a tank - motorized unit
- Rank. My estimation was right for the rank . As you say , he was an OberLeutantant. Here is a wikipedia translation which explanes the Reserve comment "Translated as "Senior Lieutenant", the rank is typically bestowed upon commissioned officers after five to six years of active duty service" . Probably he didn't study to a military school, so he earn his rank either after a long service or because of his academic ( or professional past ) . Did he study something before the war ? Did he join the after-Vaimar army or he joined the army when WWII started ?
-Medal. Iros Cross , second class
- Hats. Sorry,don't know

[haen2]

Hi Pix
The correctform is HEER (Army) .
Herr means Mister or Sir.
Sometimes confusing for non german speakers.
cheers.
HN

[Hans]

Hi Cassandra,
There is every possibility that your great uncle gained his commission before the war. Probably called up for his obligatory service and was selected for officer training on the basis of his education. On completion of his compulsory training he would have been discharged into the reserve.He would have undertaken a number of courses during or after his compulsory service and on completion would have been given the rank of Leutnant. Oberleutnant would have been his next promotion.

Anyway you will find all this out when you receive info. from WAS[t].

- Hans

PS. He sure did like his cigarettes.

[Pixieee]

Hi Pix
The correctform is HEER (Army) .
Herr means Mister or Sir.
Sometimes confusing for non german speakers.
cheers.
HN

Yes, Haen2.
You're right..My mistake

[cassarnold]

Thanks everyone,
Ah, Heer, not Herr, yes, now I understand, no worries. :-)

Since Georg was born in 1908, he was 18 in 1926. Perhaps he joined the army then and received training and then was put into the reserves? I don't know much about his education, but I doubt he went to any military school. They were a well-educated family, but his death certificate says he was a "farmer", so that doesn't suggest he had any advanced education. He never married. I wonder when they would have called upon the reserves--he was definitely serving by 1941, maybe recruited in 1940 or so (he would have been 32).

Hans, I sent off the letters just yesterday to WASt and to several other places you suggested--7 letters in total!! I tried to write them auf Deutsch and included dates/places/and even a photo of each. I am looking for info on 3 of my relatives: Georg (1908-1942), my grandfather Horst (1897-1940), and another great-uncle Eduard (my godfather) who was in the Luftwaffe (he lived 1918-1992). Thank you AGAIN for your help. I will try to be patient about responses and then let you know what I find.

One more question: "Litze"--that refers to the bars/bands/patch on the front neck collar, left and right, that define the rank? What exactly is "Waffenfarbe", the colors of the Litze?

best,
Cassandra

[Pixieee]

Since Georg was born in 1908, he was 18 in 1926. Perhaps he joined the army then and received training and then was put into the reserves? I don't know much about his education, but I doubt he went to any military school. They were a well-educated family, but his death certificate says he was a "farmer", so that doesn't suggest he had any advanced education. He never married. I wonder when they would have called upon the reserves--he was definitely serving by 1941, maybe recruited in 1940 or so (he would have been 32).


1920 to 1930 were hard years for Deutschland .....no food,no work,no future....Probably he joined the army when he was young ( 18 ? ) in order to avoid starving. These years if someone joined the army, he was obliged to serve for no less than 12 years (this was ruled by the allies in order to make the military profeesion unatractive for Germans and prevent the rebirth of the German Army)

So, if he joined the Heer at the age of 18 in 1926...1926+12 = 1938 . He fulfills his military obligations as a soldier or as sergeant , for example. Then he is sent to the reserves . The WWII starts and after a while , because of his previous military experience, he is promoted to 2nd leutantant , to obersleutentant and so on....

I hope that you'll get more answers soon !