Counting the dead
Counting the dead
There was a point being made in the now locked topic as to why there's no institution researching the number of deaths in Poland during the WWII. I'd like to continue with this discussion and my question is - how many countries in continental Europe have done and completed comprehensive research on the numbers of their WWII casualties.
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phylo_roadking
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Marko, I dont think it could really be done, not accurately. The base starting-line would be a nation's census system, and in many cases these were not foolproof....because many nations then used THESE as the basis of their non-income related taxation systems. So inaccuracy in the base data.
Next, what do you do about the missing war years? How do you extrapolate natural births and deaths? In SO many countries another census did not take place til 1946-7. War damage meant that many record systems - civil records, church records hospital records etc were destroyed. It wasn't the day of nearly-indestructable storage media or contingency storage.
The closest thing to it is actually rationing records in those nations that had a rationing system, but these were always months if not years out of date due to the movement of the civilian and military populations.
Then again, some major blind spots occured. For several years many countries were too busy trying to rebuild ebough infrastructure to be able to plain FEED who was LEFT, the counting of survivors and the micromanagement of foodstuff became more important. hence the delay in restarting proper censuses. (censusae?)
Many casualty reports from during the war were incorrect. Bodies just vanished by the thousand in rubble, explosions, drownings at sea... whole working populations were in transit daily. It was the first era of TRUE mass transit. Many records WERE kept, or tried to, but were wildly inaccurate....
then you have the WHOLE aspect of the Holocaust, and thats ALL I'll say - except that as the end loomed in 1945 the German's penchant for recording and tabulating evrything was matched by their zeal at destroying it all again.
Through the 50 and 60s, whe it COULD be done, there was no impetus to do so, that was the era not of reconciliation, but of reconstruction and pride in the NEW wordl, the 70s and 80s were the era of reconciliation, and only NOW after the turn of the century are we into that strange period of reconciliation by way of "mines bigger than yours" accounting....which is arguably not right. The Poles if they start now are NOT doing it for the right reason, which is their own awareness and commemoration. Theyre doing it in reaction....
Many nations have, I think come to the realisation they are far too late to do it right and accurately, and so....is it best doen at all? Or left that everyone who dided was a victim, whether all equally deserving of respect or not.
phylo
Next, what do you do about the missing war years? How do you extrapolate natural births and deaths? In SO many countries another census did not take place til 1946-7. War damage meant that many record systems - civil records, church records hospital records etc were destroyed. It wasn't the day of nearly-indestructable storage media or contingency storage.
The closest thing to it is actually rationing records in those nations that had a rationing system, but these were always months if not years out of date due to the movement of the civilian and military populations.
Then again, some major blind spots occured. For several years many countries were too busy trying to rebuild ebough infrastructure to be able to plain FEED who was LEFT, the counting of survivors and the micromanagement of foodstuff became more important. hence the delay in restarting proper censuses. (censusae?)
Many casualty reports from during the war were incorrect. Bodies just vanished by the thousand in rubble, explosions, drownings at sea... whole working populations were in transit daily. It was the first era of TRUE mass transit. Many records WERE kept, or tried to, but were wildly inaccurate....
then you have the WHOLE aspect of the Holocaust, and thats ALL I'll say - except that as the end loomed in 1945 the German's penchant for recording and tabulating evrything was matched by their zeal at destroying it all again.
Through the 50 and 60s, whe it COULD be done, there was no impetus to do so, that was the era not of reconciliation, but of reconstruction and pride in the NEW wordl, the 70s and 80s were the era of reconciliation, and only NOW after the turn of the century are we into that strange period of reconciliation by way of "mines bigger than yours" accounting....which is arguably not right. The Poles if they start now are NOT doing it for the right reason, which is their own awareness and commemoration. Theyre doing it in reaction....
Many nations have, I think come to the realisation they are far too late to do it right and accurately, and so....is it best doen at all? Or left that everyone who dided was a victim, whether all equally deserving of respect or not.
phylo
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Tom Houlihan
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There's another factor, Phylo. Aside from the fact that you'd never be able to accurately list all those who died during the actual war, how about those who died months later from wounds, illness, or maltreatment?
If Piotr was freed from a POW camp in May of 45, but died in Feb 46 of an illness contracted in the camp, would he not be a victim of the war?
While I think a team of statisticians and researchers could have a merry old time trying to come up with meaningful numbers around the world, I honestly think they'd be trying to empty the ocean with a teacup. For all the factors you've listed, it could never be done with any degree of accuracy.
If Piotr was freed from a POW camp in May of 45, but died in Feb 46 of an illness contracted in the camp, would he not be a victim of the war?
While I think a team of statisticians and researchers could have a merry old time trying to come up with meaningful numbers around the world, I honestly think they'd be trying to empty the ocean with a teacup. For all the factors you've listed, it could never be done with any degree of accuracy.
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phylo_roadking
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You're right about that, as recently as a few years ago there were elderly Japanese still dying of various related illnesses as a result of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for instance, and OAPs in Isreal suffering now from the longterm effects of the camps. They all count.
phylo
phylo
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Yes, I can't imagine the enormous difficulties associated with creating such a comprehensive casualty list. Yet, still there's some progress being made in this field in the last decade. Friulian institute for the history of resistance - IFSML - completed "the count" a few years ago, a similar project based on the latter is also being concluded in Slovenia and started in Croatia. What they did is use various archival records, similar lists made by various associations, local researchers, field research and then double or triple checked every entry, determine the status of the victims (civilian/military), etc. Obviously these projects are limited to the war and immediate post-war casualties, so at least to my knowledge wouldn't necessarily include examples like Tom mentioned, though I'd suppose veterans associations would keep such records. Naturally this entails years of research not to mention sufficient funds but the result is well worth it. I kind of hoped something similar would have been done in the rest of Europe.
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phylo_roadking
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Marko, I'd hate to think of the motivations behind those studies in SLOVENIA and CROATIA in the last few years - given what the last twenty years entailed for that region 
Also, you'll find that the rural nature of the vast majority of the populations of those areas made record-keeping and more importantly preservation a practical reality.
Its the vast urban populations of Western Europe that will really cause the most difficulty. Think for example of the destruction of, say - Cologne. NOT the casualty lists....What else would have been lost? Civil births, marriages and deaths registers, Church records of the same, Kaserne in the city would loose their regimental records, etc. In the days of paper-only records it was SO easy to destroy these. Think of the bit of film you see in documentaries on a little old palsied German OAP checking he casualty lists after one of the firestorm bombings...three or four A4 pages! So VERY often all the sources that you THINK should be relaible, like casualty lists, are VERY flawed. Loose a whole city block for example, and you loose ANYONE who would otherwise step forward and say "Offcier, Mr.X didnt come home last night." If Mr.X' ENTIRE family is gone, who reports them gone?? Noone, so they don't get counted. Now, think of that happening a thousand times a night...
Also, you'll find that the rural nature of the vast majority of the populations of those areas made record-keeping and more importantly preservation a practical reality.Its the vast urban populations of Western Europe that will really cause the most difficulty. Think for example of the destruction of, say - Cologne. NOT the casualty lists....What else would have been lost? Civil births, marriages and deaths registers, Church records of the same, Kaserne in the city would loose their regimental records, etc. In the days of paper-only records it was SO easy to destroy these. Think of the bit of film you see in documentaries on a little old palsied German OAP checking he casualty lists after one of the firestorm bombings...three or four A4 pages! So VERY often all the sources that you THINK should be relaible, like casualty lists, are VERY flawed. Loose a whole city block for example, and you loose ANYONE who would otherwise step forward and say "Offcier, Mr.X didnt come home last night." If Mr.X' ENTIRE family is gone, who reports them gone?? Noone, so they don't get counted. Now, think of that happening a thousand times a night...
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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phylo_roadking
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No, I mean where ethnic cleansing was one again in full swing with one side or the other accusing each other of genocide and war crimes
Another problem for casualty lists Ive just thought of; a lot of Euorpean cities were also way stations for already displaced populations from other bombings and disasters, so records were never up to date. families were crowded into blacks of flats etc. NOW imagine that the ONLY person with anything like their finger on the pulse, getting ration cards issued, getting medical care arranged....what happens when the BLOCK WARDEN is killed? Dozens of people can vanish off the record at once.
France and Belgium were pretty bad too, Marko. No carpet bombing but still quite a lot of tactical bombing, with greater disruption for longer of the transport infrastructure. Imagine a train stuck somewhere for the night, maybe due to blown-up tracks - and the village or town the passengers are in is bombed. Single men, single women travelling and no family at either end - vanish. Plus in those nations and elsewhere in Europe, think of the compulsory labour works, hundreds of thusands of them, all on the move....
In the Balkans, and also Italy from 1943 to 1945, a lot of local inhabitants vansihed not at the hands of warring armies - but their neighbours. partisan activity in Italy went through the roof, communists vs. fascists, and of course the Balkans were a mess, almost as much as they have been recently.Who keeps records of THOSE deaths? Or more importantly - who reports them? Noone - they go and try and even the score.
Not just bombing, Marko - think of Western Europe and refugees, tens of thousands left the places where there were records of them, and if they died on the road, none recorded it.
Another problem for casualty lists Ive just thought of; a lot of Euorpean cities were also way stations for already displaced populations from other bombings and disasters, so records were never up to date. families were crowded into blacks of flats etc. NOW imagine that the ONLY person with anything like their finger on the pulse, getting ration cards issued, getting medical care arranged....what happens when the BLOCK WARDEN is killed? Dozens of people can vanish off the record at once.
France and Belgium were pretty bad too, Marko. No carpet bombing but still quite a lot of tactical bombing, with greater disruption for longer of the transport infrastructure. Imagine a train stuck somewhere for the night, maybe due to blown-up tracks - and the village or town the passengers are in is bombed. Single men, single women travelling and no family at either end - vanish. Plus in those nations and elsewhere in Europe, think of the compulsory labour works, hundreds of thusands of them, all on the move....
In the Balkans, and also Italy from 1943 to 1945, a lot of local inhabitants vansihed not at the hands of warring armies - but their neighbours. partisan activity in Italy went through the roof, communists vs. fascists, and of course the Balkans were a mess, almost as much as they have been recently.Who keeps records of THOSE deaths? Or more importantly - who reports them? Noone - they go and try and even the score.
Not just bombing, Marko - think of Western Europe and refugees, tens of thousands left the places where there were records of them, and if they died on the road, none recorded it.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
I understand your point, but then again this is comparatively minor obstacle (in comparison with guerrilla warfare in Italy or on the Balkans) especially as the same is true for N Italy & Slovenia, records were actually kept by various humanitarian organizations and likewise you have to remember there was a food rationing system enforced in most of Europe.Not just bombing, Marko - think of Western Europe and refugees, tens of thousands left the places where there were records of them, and if they died on the road, none recorded it.
This is actually one of the reasons for such a research in order to kill victim manipulations by various groups. So I don't think this should neccesarily have a negative impact.In the Balkans, and also Italy from 1943 to 1945, a lot of local inhabitants vansihed not at the hands of warring armies - but their neighbours. partisan activity in Italy went through the roof, communists vs. fascists, and of course the Balkans were a mess, almost as much as they have been recently.Who keeps records of THOSE deaths? Or more importantly - who reports them? Noone - they go and try and even the score.
IFSML and their Sloven counterpart INZ did an excellent job in this area, especially with regards to the number of infoibamenti. Like I mentioned various lists already existed, local church's records also proved very valuable, likewise prewar census.
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phylo_roadking
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Marko, interesting point about the rationing aspect, because Ive been chasing this down for a bit of writing on-hands. Its not that clearcut unfortunately LOL every national system was different, with only the British system being the one wholly comprehensive, centrally-controlled and recorded system. In France the high percentage of French national involved in the running of the system there - similarly in Holland and Belgium - meant that there were a LOT of holes in the sytem specially to provide rations for the Maquis units drilling in the bush, so to speak. Also to provide slack in the system for black marketeers. I wish I could point you in the right direction now, I didnt expect to need the reference, but its reckoned that there was anything up to half a million MORE french citizens drawing rations at any one time than there were living breathing Frenchmen and women!
In Germany, the direction the NSDAP party organisation took thru the war meant that greater responsibility in the rationing system went further down the line to towns and local party workers, so much easier to knock big holes in the system.
Holland was even worse - the system there was totally skewed to provide for the tens of thousands of called-up workers for the Reich who went underground for the duration, assisted by the Resistance. Anne Frank and her family may be famous, but throughout Holland for three or four years there were tens of thousands of people in hiding!
The Danish as a population managed to protect their Jewish population by falsifying records, among other things!
Good point about relief organisations, and this applied in rural communities, like your church records - but in many countries they only could maintain records on their "clients" so to speak, the people who passed through their hands. In Britain, and I think in Germany too, the Red Cross etc had no part in relief operations except int their essential functions AS relief workers, information-gathering etc was a governmental responsibility. Places like Northern Italy and the Balkans they did this BECAUSE there was little in the war of government at that time.
Marko, dont forget too that many governments in Europe are busy putting those days well behind them; maybe TOO far at times, so that lessons are lost, but theres not as much impetus for this research. Even Poland wouldnt be doing it...if not for the subject on hands...
In Germany, the direction the NSDAP party organisation took thru the war meant that greater responsibility in the rationing system went further down the line to towns and local party workers, so much easier to knock big holes in the system.
Holland was even worse - the system there was totally skewed to provide for the tens of thousands of called-up workers for the Reich who went underground for the duration, assisted by the Resistance. Anne Frank and her family may be famous, but throughout Holland for three or four years there were tens of thousands of people in hiding!
The Danish as a population managed to protect their Jewish population by falsifying records, among other things!
Good point about relief organisations, and this applied in rural communities, like your church records - but in many countries they only could maintain records on their "clients" so to speak, the people who passed through their hands. In Britain, and I think in Germany too, the Red Cross etc had no part in relief operations except int their essential functions AS relief workers, information-gathering etc was a governmental responsibility. Places like Northern Italy and the Balkans they did this BECAUSE there was little in the war of government at that time.
Marko, dont forget too that many governments in Europe are busy putting those days well behind them; maybe TOO far at times, so that lessons are lost, but theres not as much impetus for this research. Even Poland wouldnt be doing it...if not for the subject on hands...
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Thanks for the info on rationing system but like I said I still don't see this as any greater obstacles as the one experienced by Italian and Slovene researchers (i.e. partisan and anti-partisan terror, foibe, German deportations of roughly 80,000 Slovenes, post-war immigration of considerable number of Slovenes and Croats, border changes, forced labour, etc.). I fear this is unfortunately:
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the greatest obstacleMarko, dont forget too that many governments in Europe are busy putting those days well behind them; maybe TOO far at times, so that lessons are lost, but theres not as much impetus for this research. Even Poland wouldnt be doing it...if not for the subject on hands...
.Re: Counting the dead
1. there was and is many institutions:Marko wrote:There was a point being made in the now locked topic as to why there's no institution researching the number of deaths in Poland during the WWII.
a) Polish Red Cross,
b) Glowna Komisja Badania Zbrodni Niemieckich,
c) Instytut Pamieci Narodowej
2. Poland before 1939 exist only 20 years. There was no common archives for whole Poland before that. Documents were written in german and russian. In 1918 on Polish territory were 4 currencies, 3 laws, 2 calendars and so on. Poland was like new born child, killed just after birth. So don't be surprised, that Poles have trouble to count all dead on WWII.
Hi,
figures for Germany:
Overmanns, Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg, München 1999
Bundesminister, Dokumente deutscher Kriegsschäden, Vol. I-V (10 books), Bonn 1958-1964
Generally, all datas are including estimates and mistakes.
Overmanns is reporting 5.318.000 kias (soldiers), of them 3.546.000 BRD, 910.000 from the earlier german areas in the east, 261.000 from Austria and 601.000 from other areas. Sorted in years:
1939 19.000
1940 83.000
1941 357.000
1942 572.000
1943 812.000
1944 1.802.000
1945 1.540.000
1946/47 (???) 58.000
Greetings
Thomas
figures for Germany:
Overmanns, Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg, München 1999
Bundesminister, Dokumente deutscher Kriegsschäden, Vol. I-V (10 books), Bonn 1958-1964
Generally, all datas are including estimates and mistakes.
Overmanns is reporting 5.318.000 kias (soldiers), of them 3.546.000 BRD, 910.000 from the earlier german areas in the east, 261.000 from Austria and 601.000 from other areas. Sorted in years:
1939 19.000
1940 83.000
1941 357.000
1942 572.000
1943 812.000
1944 1.802.000
1945 1.540.000
1946/47 (???) 58.000
Greetings
Thomas
Das Studium der Tagesmeldungen der Heeresgruppen ist mühseliger als die Lösung eines Kreuzworträtsels (Guderian 4.2.45)
Re: Counting the dead
Hi Pirx,
Thanks for your post.
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Thomas,
What about WAST? Did they ever publish any numbers or are these used by Overmanns. Thanks
Marko
Thanks for your post.
That's sounds a lot like Kingdom of Yugoslavia in the interwar period, part of which were, modern day Slovenia and CroatiaPirx wrote:2. Poland before 1939 exist only 20 years. There was no common archives for whole Poland before that. Documents were written in german and russian. In 1918 on Polish territory were 4 currencies, 3 laws, 2 calendars and so on. Poland was like new born child, killed just after birth. So don't be surprised, that Poles have trouble to count all dead on WWII.
.Thomas,
What about WAST? Did they ever publish any numbers or are these used by Overmanns. Thanks
Marko