Btl. vs Abt.

Helmut · Post by **Helmut** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:49 am

Servus,
What is the difference in German Miliary Organization between a Batlaillon and an Abteilung? I know that Infantry is always shown as a Battallion , Atillery is sometimes shown as either. Separate Battalions within a Division are as Abteilungen with the exception of the Pionieren, the Wirtschafts Btl , the FEB Btl and the A u E Btl. I have seen tank units within a Division's Regiment shown both ways but separate Pz units are always Abteilungen.
Is there any rhyme or reason to these designations?

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Regards,

Helmut

Wolfkin · Post by **Wolfkin** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:02 pm

Hello!

Sometimes it is difficult to clear up the "Abteilung/Bataillon issue". Suffice it to say that "Abteilung" does translate as detachment but it is most commonly used to refer to Battalion-sized units of Panzer, Panzeraufklarung, Nachrichten and Artillerie, to name a few. "Bataillon" was used for Infanterie and Pioniere, to name a couple.

These types of units are roughly the same size regarding number of Kompanien but with the Infanterie and Pioniere Bataillon being slightly larger in terms of manpower than the Panzerabteilung or Panzeraufklarungabteilung. Probably the best way to differentiate between the two is to remember that "Bataillon" will refer mostly to Infanterie units and "Abteilung" will refer mostly to Panzer units.

Example: Panzerabteilung, Panzeraufklarungabteilung, Infanteriebataillon, Pionierebataillon.

On another and slightly off-topic-but-related note; Abteilung was also used for the "Armee Abteilung" type of unit, which was a detachment larger than a Korps but smaller than a full Armee.

Example: Armee Abteilung Kempf

I hope this helps!

Cheers,

Wolfkin

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:16 am

Abteilung:

“Generally defined as an organic formation of battalion size.”
[Davies, W.J.K. German Army Handbook 1939-1945. New York: Arco Publishing Co., 1977. p.19].

“....battalion (Cav, Arty, Armd Comd); detachment, unit (Tac); department, section (Adm).”
[War Department. German Military Dictionary. TM 30-506. May, 1944].

Interestingly, the Handbook on German Military Forces (TM-E 30-451) doesn’t even address the issue and consistently refers to Abteilungen as battalions. Nor does the German Order of Battle 1944, an Arms & Armour Press reprint of the War Department publication of the same name dated February 1944, which consistently refers to Abteilungen as battalions and units. For that matter, Tessin offers no definition or explanation, either.

My understanding has always been that the principal difference between them is that the Abteilung is a more flexible structure ranging at full strength from a relatively small 300 men as with a Nachrichtenabteilung to a very large 1,150 men as with a Luftwaffe schwere Flak-Abteilung motorized or transferable with 5 batteries. To find out what the rule was in determining whether to label a new unit to be formed a Bataillon or an Abteilung, it would probably be necessary to examine the records of the Organisationsabteilung/OKH in the NARA T-78 microfilms or in the paper records at BA-MA Freiburg.

--Lorenz

Alex Coles · Post by **Alex Coles** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:48 am

I've always pondered over this. I assumed it was always abteilung and batlallion was a misspelling, but that makes me think that why are certain shops called "abteilungs" in the german language...

Helmut · Post by **Helmut** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:14 pm

Servus,
Thanks to all of you but I'm still confused. I realize the word Abteilung us a section or detachmnet . I often see it translated as Detachmment but I believe this gives the false impression. It implies, to me at least, that the entire unit is not present. This is true even when it is used to describe an Armee Abteilung.

Oh well, I'll just have to keep on digging.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Helmut

Tom Houlihan · Post by **Tom Houlihan** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:36 pm

Helmut, as often as I've looked at contradictory definitions of that word, I've come to accept that as Americans, we'll never completely comprehend its true meaning. With the exception of the Armee Abteilung, I just take it as a battalion-sized unit. That's usually close enough!

Paulus II · Post by **Paulus II** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:24 am

Indeed it is Tom.

In the Dutch army we had the same difference between afdeling (Abteilung) and bataljon (You know what

). Armour and artillery using afdeling and the rest using bataljon. The same type of unit is meant. In the "building blocks" sequence by which an army is built up they both fill the gap between company and brigade and are commanded by officers of the same rank (though it may vary per army if it's a major, lt-col or full colonel. So they are different names for the same thing.
Like in most armies you have an infantry company, an armour squadron and an artillery battery. Again different names for the same "building block" (for lack of a better word, this reminds me of Lego

) made up of platoons and usually all are commanded by a captain.

as Americans, we'll never completely comprehend its true meaning

Aye, short history hé

Though I'm not sure of the origin of the different words it must be one of those things that once upon a long time ago denoted a significant difference between units but over time and due to modern standadisation in an armies setup has lost its original meaning and evolved into something new and just lingers on in the military vocabulary.

Paul

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:49 am

As I noted above,

To find out what the rule was in determining whether to label a new unit to be formed a Bataillon or an Abteilung, it would probably be necessary to examine the records of the Organisationsabteilung/OKH in the NARA T-78 microfilms or in the paper records at BA-MA Freiburg.

There is definitely a difference, or at least there was to the Wehrmacht during World War II. I have seen pages and pages of documents describing the arcane distinction between Abteilung and Bataillon in the records of the Organisations-Abt./OKH, and when each was to be used and when not. Hopefully, Dr. Leo or Christoph Awender will come along and clear this up, since this sort of thing is what they specialize in.

--Lorenz

Marko · Post by **Marko** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:28 am

I seem to remember this topic being discussed in the past, if I'm not mistaken by one the two ToE experts (or both) already mentioned in this thread. Like always tring to find something I wasn't able to find it but as far as I can remember, as already mentioned in this thread, the difference between both designations were that Bataillon was used for infantry units while Abteilung for non-infantry units, of course with some exceptions.

Helmut · Post by **Helmut** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:21 am

Helmut wrote:
Bataillon was used for infantry units while Abteilung for non-infantry units, of course with some exceptions.[ quote]

Like Pionieren.

This still baffles me. It seems that they have a different term just for the sake of having a differeent term.
The terms Battalion, Squadron, Troop, and Battery are grounded in history and lineage but, and I may be wrong, the term Abteilung is not a term that goes back very far in German military parlance.

Thanks again

Regard,

Helmut

Boy, i sure don't know how I did that!!!!

Tom Houlihan · Post by **Tom Houlihan** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:05 am

I don't either, Helmut, but I fixed the doppelpost!

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:18 am

Hi guys,

just found this in Osprey's German Field Fortifications, p.10:

The Germans employed two terms for battalion: Bataillon was used by infantry and pioneer battalions and Abteilung (or subdivision) was used by armour, artillery, smoke, cavalry and other branches.

Think this tends to broadly follow the explanations given above.

For 17SS - I think when dealing with German shops the best translation would be department