Curzon and Poland

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:58 pm

Hi Pirx,

So, you are suggesting that Pilsudski himself did not consider much of Eastern Poland as intrinsically Polish? Surely this merely reinforces my point that this was precisely the case beause Poles were in a minority in most of it?

Nope. Right idea. As you well know, I have several times previously given the specific statistics division by division on Feldgrau. Between the wars Poles were deliberately sent to serve as conscripts in the East of Poland where Poles were a minority of the population. If you want the English source, or details of the original Polish source, just look in Zaloga and Madej's excellent book on the Polish Campaign, published by Hyppocrene Press.

We are not talking about the KOP border guards today. We are talking about between the wars. Between the wars the KOP on the Sovet border was entirely ethnically Polish. The bulk of the local population was not trusted to serve in the KOP because the majority of their compatriots were Soviet citizens.

I do not think any study has been done on the relative performance of ethnic minorities in the Polish Army in 1939. However, we do know that the Polish Army fell apart very rapidly and we do know that there was sniping and sabotage by Ukrainian nationalists in south-eastern Poland within the area the Polish High Command had designated for making a final stand.

What is more, even if minorities had served with distinction in Polish ranks, it need not tell us much about their real attitude to the Polish state. Remember, on another recent Feldgrau post it was pointed out that Poles played a significant role within the German Army during the Battle of Tannenberg in 1914. Did this reflect Polish loyalty to the German state?

I agree that there were pragmatic reasons why Poland's border was so far east of the Polish ethnic border between the wars, but this is an entirely different argument from proposing that this area was Polish by right and that Poles were entitled to integrate it into their state for ever afterwards.

Cheers,

Sid

P.S. Was Curzon ever even asked to delineate Byelorussian and Ukrainian states? Tell me more....

Torquez

Post by Torquez » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:28 pm

? You mention the recreation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Lithuanians didn't seem very keen on this.
Actually Lithuanians had a very little role in this with Ukrainians being the ones most important, and in fact signing alliance with Polish forces.Unfortunetely they were sort of betreyed-Poland simply should go further against Bolsheviks then it did.

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Post by Pirx » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:57 am

I never wrote that Poles was majority behind Curzon line. I know that, Pilsudski knew that, other polititians knew that.
Was Curzon ever even asked to delineate Byelorussian and Ukrainian states? Tell me more....
That's the point!

Lord Curzon maybe wasn't asked about Byelorussians or Ukrainians, but when hi proposed his ethnic border hi must said something. Simply hi didn't take responsibility what he talk about (and he was great speaker).
Curzon: Polish eastern border should be there. And what now?
Ukraine behind this border? silence. What about Poles who lived there? silence. What about Jews? silence. He said A, he should say B.
Great speaker but poor polititian. His horizon ended on his nose.
And his legacy we can find in Munich 1938. Czechoslovakian border should be there, and nobody even didn't ask Czechs what they thought about this.

Sid. I agree that Poles was less than 40% there, i agree that each nation should has own country. But i never agree with UK politics in 1919-1921. Not only in case of Poland, but also in East. Lawrence of Arabia draw map of Arabic countries. But French and British goverment even not talk about his proposition. They just draw straight lines on map.

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Post by Shmeiker » Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:19 am

Sid - sorry, but your own point are crumbling down quite seriously.

You can not question that Poles formed the biggest ethnic group in discussed region. Thus - in situation when no ethnic group could achieve 50% share - Poles were predominant among other ethnic groups living there. If you wish, you can call them a minority, but compared to number of Poles the other nationalities living there were even smaller minorities. For that simple reason those territories by all means could be considered Polish (or if you need 50% census they should be considered no-nationality areas, which in real life is impossible).

---

Argument that Poles followed the idea of their own Lebensraum is pointless. After all, practically all countries were formed by conquest and search of Lebensraum. If you try to accuse Poles, look at the English, the French, Germans, Russians, Americans or whomever you like. That was simply a way to create a country during those times.

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:17 am

After 64 years of massive deportations to Ziemie Odzyskane and further Soviet-Lithuanian persecutions and discrimination of local Poles:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/inte ... uania.html
Poles succeed in Lithuania
08.06.2009 15:01

In yesterday’s European Parliament elections in Lithuania, Poles managed to get enough votes to secure a representative for European Parliament.

The Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania (EAPL) gathered 8,46 percent of votes and won victory in four districts: Vilnius (71 percent of votes), Salcininkai (80,6 percent), Trakai (31,38 percent), Svencionys (22,42 percent).

Waldemar Tomaszewski, the head of the EAPL, will be the first Pole in Lithuanian history to become a member of European Parliament.

“It is a superb result!” commented Tomaszewski, who admitted that the party owes a part of its success to a low voter turnout.

“While in the EP I’m going to focus on three main issues: energy, human rights, including the rights of minorities, and ideology, i.e. spreading Christian values,” added the politician, describing his political program. (mg/mmj)
Today Wilno and Wilenszczyzna region are still 71 percent Polish. :[] Good job Wilnianie. :up:

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Jan-Hendrik » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:57 am

But how much percent of the voters went voting in those districts? :wink:

It seems polish national chauvinism will never die out...

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Pirx » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:03 pm

Jan-Hendrik wrote:But how much percent of the voters went voting in those districts? :wink:

It seems polish national chauvinism will never die out...

Jan-Hendrik
chauvinism has no nationality. It never dies in Poland, Italy, Nigeria, USA, Russia ect. Has it died in Germany?
amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:58 pm

It seems polish national chauvinism will never die out...

Jan-Hendrik
chauvinism has no nationality. Has it died in Germany?
But it was originally invented by Pole - Natan Szowiniściński - didn't you know about that? That's why it is called "national chauvinism". :wink:

Not before Natan Szowiniściński emigrated to Germany, chauvinism appeared there. That's why Jan-Hendrik is completely right, as always. :wink:
Today Wilno and Wilenszczyzna region are still 71 percent Polish.
I was a bit wrong - Polish list gained 71 percent of votes only in the Vilnius District, which is composed of areas around Vilnius but without the city itself.

In the city of Vilnius itself (which is a separated district - "Vilnius city" - with much more inhabitants than "Vilnius district") Polish list gained much fewer votes.

I didn't know about this division (there are two districts - I thought that there is only one) when I found this information.

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:59 pm

Ethnic composition of East Poland (Białystok, Lublin, Lwów, Wilno, Nowogródek, Polesie, Wołyń, Tarnopol, Stanisławów Voivodeships - today entire Lublin and parts of Białystok & Lwów Voivodeships are still in Poland) according to 1931 census:

download/file.php?mode=view&id=7441
Polacy Kresy D.png
Polacy Kresy D.png (180.84 KiB) Viewed 4465 times
There are disputes whether Poleshuks and Ruthenians should be counted as separate groups or rather as part of Belarussians and part of Ukrainians respectively. The policy of the Polish government in 1931 was to count them separately. It seems that Germans in their censuses had been using similar policies to divide Poles, Kashubs, Mazurs, Silesians, etc. before.

Note that believers of Judaism whose mother tongue was Polish (not Yiddish) were counted as Poles in 1931 - see:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1848719

=====================================

Here links to more of similar maps:

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Lithuania:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... nej-litwy/

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Belarus:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... bialorusi/

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Ukraine:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... h-ukrainy/

Poles in pre-war Lithuania, pre-war Latvia and pre-war Soviet Republics of Belarus and Ukraine:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... ch-ogolem/

=======================================

As for the city of Wilno - I posted such data here:

http://historum.com/history/60578-insid ... ost1693077

http://historum.com/european-history/53 ... ost1684833

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... o#p1844698

Only one additional note to this data before I post it - it is commonly accepted by scholars outside of Russia that the 1897 census was falsified when it comes to the number of Poles (i.e. many Poles were counted as Russians or Belarussians by Russian census takers) - despite this fact, Poles were still the most numerous "nationally significant" group in Vilnius (Jews were "nationally neutral" - they did not have their own state, and they did not claim any territories as their own basing on the argument / criterion of being the ethnic majority group).

Ethnic groups of the city of Wilno according to censuses in period 1897 - 2011:

1) By percentage of total population:
Vilnius.png
Vilnius.png (140.95 KiB) Viewed 4465 times
2) By number of people:
VilniusB.png
VilniusB.png (145.12 KiB) Viewed 4465 times

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:11 pm

BTW:

Modern border of Poland is along the falsified Namierowski Line. The original Curzon Line included Lviv as part of Poland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Bernstein_Namier
"(...) Namier was seen as one of the biggest enemies of the newly independent Polish state in the British political environment. He falsified the earlier proposed Curzon line by detaching the city of Lwów from Poland with a version called Curzon Line "A". It was sent to Soviet diplomatic representatives for acceptance. The earlier compromised version of Curzon line which was debated at the Spa Conference was renamed Curzon Line "B". (...)"

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:22 pm

Germans started to divide Poles into "Poles proper", "Kashubs", "Mazurs" and "Silesians" relatively late - after 1850.

Here is a Prussian map from year 1847, which doesn't do this - it has no such groups, only "Polacken" everywhere:

Red line is border between Prussian and Russian partition zones in Poland:

Image

Boundaries of areas with majority of population being "Polacken" according to this map highlighted:

Image

BTW - this map still shows situation after 50 years of government-sponsored German colonization in partitioned Poland.

======================================================

And here - to compare with situation in 1847 - language boundaries around year 1600:

Pink - Polish majority
Blue - German majority
Olive green - Prussian majority
Yellow - Sorbian majority
And also Lithuanian-speaking areas in the north-east.

Image

No "German strip" along the Vistula River ranging from Danzig in the north to Thorn in the south.

That "German strip" was created later - after 1600 and before 1850.

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:58 pm

language boundaries around year 1600:
Sorry - not 1600 but around 1650 (after the Thirty Years' War and the depopulation of Pomerania caused by it).
That "German strip" was created later - after 1600 and before 1850.
After 1650 and before 1850.

============================================

Edit:

And the legend for that map from 1847 when it comes to West Slavs (as you can see no "Mazurs", no "Kashubs"):

Image

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:49 pm

BTW - the exact source of that "Polish propaganda map" from 1847 is:

Image
That "German strip" was created later - after 1650 and before 1850.
Most likely between the First Partition of Poland and 1850.

==========================================================

Example of government-sponsored German colonization in occupied (partitioned) Poland during the 1800s:

Image

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:03 am

It is interesting how many language / ethnic groups this map from 1847 has for Italy alone... 20:

Image

And in France there are even more because... 22 language / ethnic groups (10 South French and 12 North French).

On the other hand, this map knows no "Kashubs", "Silesians" or "Mazurs" - they are all counted as "Polaken".

German propaganda started to divide the Poles into several groups only after 1850, apparently.

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Re: Curzon and Poland

Post by Domen123 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:15 am

Here about Polonization of German settlers who came to Poland throughout ages:

http://historum.com/european-history/57 ... tcount=505

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