Peace between Axis and Allies

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge » Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:42 am

Hi CvD.....

Fair enough.

I therefore take it that you haven't actually got a case to offer, or are insufficiently interested to put one up. Either way:

Versailles 1 : Critics 0.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by Pirx » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:27 am

We got Greater Poland, and Kujawy back in 1920, We got Gdansk, Pomorze, Slask back in 1945.
We also lost Podole, Polesie i Ziemia Nowogrodzka in 1945. We lost 20 % population, and 20% territory after WWII. And we were Allies not Axis.
And CvD is talking something about injustice!

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Post by sid guttridge » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:26 am

Hi Pirx,

.........true, but as usual you are failing to mention that most of the population and territory lost after WWII to the USSR was not Polish or populated by Poles. (You know this perfectly well from previous threads, so why do you keep hiding it?)

The Curzon Line, which was one of the Versailles-related proposals, took into account these issues. As with much else with the Treaty of Versailles and related settlements, there is plenty of room to quibble about the details, but the main proposals had some logic behind them.

Cheers,

Sid.

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M.H.
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Post by M.H. » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:31 am

Excuse me Sid,
but I find it really ironic how a non-german (or non-pole for that matter) generously decides which german/polish land should belong to whom.
You should refrain from such statements and justifications...8)

End of the debate!

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Post by sid guttridge » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:57 am

Hi M.H.,

It doesn't matter much who does it so long as it is done in line with the wishes of a majority of the local population. This was one basis (arguably not always strictly enough sustained) of the Versailles process, which was followed in the generality but not in the detail.

The eastern border of Germany imposed by imperfect plebicites after WWI was far closer to the ethnic boundary between Poles and Germans than that of 1914. Similarly, the eastern Polish boundary with Russia/USSR proposed by Curzon was far closer to the ethnic boundary between Poles and others than that won by Poland in war in 1920.

You and Pirx are both trying to claim areas where, both immediately before and after WWI, your own ethnic groups were not in a majority. For all its failings, the Versailles process did at least recognise what you do not.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Alex Coles
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Post by Alex Coles » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:51 am

CvD, I think your avatar is a Knight's Cross or a Ritterkreuz (I don't know) and that's not australian. Anyway, I stated (NOTE) : IF only you was part of the british empire again. This means I am stating from the times of 1836-1902. Yes, I think you have the right to say you don't want anything british in your country's flag but what makes you want Germany to have her lands back confuses me. Aussies fought for the Entente Cordiale to stop and end German aggression, and many died (such as Gallipoli Campaign).

If I was a patriotic Australian I think I would be offended by your comments if I had grandparents from the WWI. They gave their lives in bloody trench warfare, all to keep peace, have their honor, fight for "king and country" and stop the Kaiser from dominating.

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M.H.
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Post by M.H. » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:55 am

....so that Great Britain can further dominate, huh? :wink:

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Alex Coles
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Post by Alex Coles » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:17 am

Well if you exclude denmark, britain still has an empire if you say Northern Island is part of the UK :D

Denmark has Greenland.

Anyway, did you even read the whole post?

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Post by sid guttridge » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:52 am

Hi 17thSS,

I thought an empire had to rule over a majority population unwilling to be part of that empire. This is not the case in Northern Ireland. Indeed, I don't think the UK has anywhere left where the majority of the population doesn't want to be British.

The UK has absolutely no constitutional hold over Australia. Australia is already entirely, 100%, totally independent. It has the same head of state as the UK in exactly the same way that the UK has the same head of state as Australia. There is no subservience of the interests of one to the other, or vice versa.

If the Australians want to change their flag they already have total discretion to do so and it is nobody else's business. Canada did so some forty years ago without any tension, resentment or bad feeling and Australia can do the same. It won't change the Australians' identity in any substantive way or obscure their origins but, if it makes them feel more self confident, then good luck to them with any new flag they may choose.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by Alex Coles » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:39 am

Sid,

If you re-read my post, you'll realise I stated :

''if only Australia was part of the british empire''

Yes, if ONLY. I agree that we shouldn't have permission to get involved in their changing of their flag, it must make them feel like they're still part of the commonwealth which they don't want to be. Anyway, have you guys got any idea what you want the new flag to be? (post your pic). Anyway, this is NOTHING to do with the topic.

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Post by sid guttridge » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:55 am

Hi 17SSPG,

True.

So back to my earlier point that any fair and reasonable peace on 21/6/41 would have to be based on local adaptions of the Versailles-related settlements of twenty-two years before. Versailles, although not perfect, was a massive step foward for self determination in Central Europe and so represents the natural jump-off point for any subsequent peace settlement that aspired to be fair and reasonable. A return to the borders of 1914 would not satisfy the requirement of fairness.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Alex Coles
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Post by Alex Coles » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:19 pm

So perhaps Germany could get East Prussia back, Alsace-Loraine, Schleswig-Holstein, Luxemburg and perhaps force the allies to disarm? Maybe they have to pay £50,000,000 in indemnities EACH.

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Tom Houlihan
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Post by Tom Houlihan » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:15 pm

In other words, what everyone is saying is that due to national and ethnic interests, there is no fair way to answer the original question in this thread?
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Alex Coles
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Post by Alex Coles » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:56 pm

Now, now Tom I know you want to use your moderator powers!

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Tom Houlihan
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Post by Tom Houlihan » Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:47 pm

17 SS Panzer Grenadier wrote:Now, now Tom I know you want to use your moderator powers!
Actually, I'm trying to avoid using them! If the question can't be answered reasonably, I'd rather everyone agree to disagree, than to have this degenerate into a p*ssing contest.

The thing is, I view moderators the same way I view firefighters. They're important, and you need to have them around, but if all goes well, they have nothing to do!
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