Peace between Axis and Allies

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
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M.H.
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Post by M.H. » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:19 am

...especially in the greater scheme of things...
My ass! ESPECIALLY IN THE GREATER SCHEME! How can you ignore the outcome of that "nice" and "fair" treaty??? It paved the way to millions of deaths, genocide and destruction!
Especially with our hindsight how can you say it was an advanced "good try"!
But then...arent't you also the one who plainly refuses to have this treaty have anything to do with the rise of a certain austrian corporal?
So, what the hell... :roll:

PS: And no, some countries got/go lucky with never having to pay such a heavy price for getting into war...even if they start them!
(At least I don't remember Britain being occupied by foreign powers, territory being stolen from her etc. as she made her way to conquering foreign lands, opressing and exploiting foreign people...the same with the today US, can't really see Washington razed to the ground and Texas getting back to Mexico for her starting the war in Iraq...)

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Re: Peace Treaty discussion

Post by Pirx » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:04 pm

Dan38 wrote: Poland after, I believe the third partition by Austria, Prussia and Russia, became a Duchy under the control of Tsarist Russia. Previous to that it had been an empire in its own right. The German general staff in the early part of the 20th Century wanted Poland re-established to provide a buffer-state between Germany and Russia.
Not like that.
Poland wasn't duchy under Tsar. See that map:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Rz ... iory_3.png
In 1815 after fall of Napoleon, Poland was divided once more:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Ka ... spolen.jpg
Then was created so called "Kongres Kingdom". In November 1830 was uprising against Russian and Prussian regime. After fall of uprising in october 1831, "Kongres Kingdom" was liquidated, and Poles were germanised and russised next 87 years.

In november 5th 1916 Wilhelm II promised to create "Polish state" from lands captured by kaisers army in east. Only one condition:
Poles shall create army and join to Germany against Russia, UK and France. Of course Germans did not mentioned what borders will has that state, who will rule etc.
Simply they need cannon fodder.

M.H.
What if the law Poland has against Germans to buy lands ends in few years? Poland a full member in the EU, Germans able to buy land in the old territories again? Will be interesting to watch....
(That is the same with nearly every region Germans once settled in)
Germans can buy farmland in central and eastern Poland right now, in western from 2010. But they may buy houses and apartments right now.
I think that not too many Germans wants to settle down in Poland. Even in eastern Germany is lot of empty towns. look at the Guben or Franfurt / Oder

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Post by M.H. » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:11 pm

I think that not too many Germans wants to settle down in Poland. Even in eastern Germany is lot of empty towns. look at the Guben or Franfurt / Oder
I think you are right Pirx...most Germans feel not very "caged" today...but for some it will be important to have at least the possibility to go back...I think...
And in some hundred years? Who knows... :[]

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Post by Chris von D.............. » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:56 pm

M.H. wrote:
And in some hundred years? Who knows... :[]
Europe has two choices, fight or live together. To live together means a single currency, no borders, a single judicial system, a single legislative parliamentary system.

In 20 years Europe may have 1 phone, which the US President can call.

Then the rise of China will be dwarfed by the might of Europe. While the Chinese land on the moon, Europe colonize Mars.

Eventually we will need a single world Government and currency. Earth will have to be unified before we reach out to the stars.

What we are discussing now will be like ancient history some keen student looked up for a project.

It is our place in history and we need to work for a better tomorrow for those that will follow us.
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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:57 am

Hi M.H.,

No. Versailles did not "pave the way to millions of deaths, genocide and destruction". By late August 1939, the Treaty of Versailles had been almost completely overthrown. The "millions of deaths, genocide and destruction" that you refer to occurred after this because the Nazi leadership was not after a revision of Versailles, but conquest for lebensraum in the east.

Certainly the Treaty of Versailles is part of the causal chain that led to Hitler's rise to power, but it is not responsible for his actions.

Yes, the UK and the US have been lucky enough not to be occupied (although I like to remind the Americans occasionally that the British did burn Washington down in the war of 1812). Accidents of geography are largely responsible for this. What is your point?

The Treaty of Versailles and its related treaties released several nations and tens of millions of non-Germans from rule by Austro-Germans. In return it put a much smaller number of Austro-Germans under foreign rule. So, while far from perfect, the Treaty of Versailles was a definite step forward towards the Europe of independent peoples we see today.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by M.H. » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:14 am

sid guttridge wrote: ...Certainly the Treaty of Versailles is part of the causal chain that led to Hitler's rise to power, but it is not responsible for his actions.
Says it all, really! Without Hitlers rise to power with the "help" of the Versailles treaty his "actions" would be of no concern to anybody, right?
This "causal chain" which started with making Germany the guilty, the one who has to be punished, made it possible.
Yes, the UK and the US have been lucky enough not to be occupied (although I like to remind the Americans occasionally that the British did burn Washington down in the war of 1812). Accidents of geography are largely responsible for this. What is your point?
That is my point!
Certainly the Austro-Germans suffered, but then losing a war usually has such a result.
Some criminals get away with their crimes, others do not. It is not usual the result! It's not even a fair punishment...it's more an opportunistic grabbing of more territory by the lucky one (this round).
So, while far from perfect, the Treaty of Versailles was a definite step forward towards the Europe of independent peoples we see today.
Tell that the million victims of death and oppression in the following decades! :roll:

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:35 am

Hi M.H.,

Butterflies flapping their wings in the Amazon jungle are also part of the causal chain that led to Hitler's rise to power. Just because something happens to be part of the causal chain behind something doesn't make it responsible for it.

Hitler caused WWII, not Versailles. How do we know? Because almost every provision of the Treaty of Versailles had been allowed to lapse or been overthrown by Hitler before WWII even started.

Yes, some criminals do get away with their crimes while others do not. Fortunately, the bigger criminals lost WWI, WWII and the Cold War, so I think humanity can, on ballance, be grateful for their outcomes.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by M.H. » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:43 am

Butterflies flapping their wings in the Amazon jungle are also part of the causal chain that led to Hitler's rise to power.
yeah...sure...whatever...have your day Sid! :roll:
Hitler caused WWII, not Versailles. How do we know? Because almost every provision of the Treaty of Versailles had been allowed to lapse or been overthrown by Hitler before WWII even started.
Of course Hitler was on the road of success even without the devastation the punishment brought, right? The people had to fell for his radical ideas anyhow...(do you believe that really Sid???)
Of course Hitler overthrew everything from this "Schandvertrag", it's what got him elected!8)

Let me guess, you also think Germany was the main culprit for WWI and got what she deserved?

History tells us another truth...but don't let that disturb you! :wink:

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:59 am

Hi M.H.,

Germany certainly was a main culprit of WWI because she gave Austri-Hungary the so-called "blank cheque".

Whether Germany deserved her punishment for losing WWI is another matter. Some things are for sure, Germany could not expect to emerge from a lost war that she had been instrumental in starting without some losses, and these losses could have been far worse, don't you agree?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by M.H. » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:10 am

sid guttridge wrote:Hi M.H.,

Germany certainly was a main culprit of WWI because she gave Austri-Hungary the so-called "blank cheque".

Whether Germany deserved her punishment for losing WWI is another matter. Some things are for sure, Germany could not expect to emerge from a lost war that she had been instrumental in starting without some losses, and these losses could have been far worse, don't you agree?

Cheers,

Sid.
Not a main culprit, I asked if you think she was THE main culprit!
(She got punished like that...)

This mattered a great deal for the germans! Maybe one has to be a german to recognize that...

How much worse could the losses have been?
(Not to forget german civilians starved and died in the meantime with thanks from the british. There is an estimated number of 1 million victims.)

... The Treaty of Versailles officially ended the war in May 1919. The crushing effect of this "peace treaty" on an already-reeling Germany is as staggering as it is forgotten. The defeated nation lost nearly one-third of its total land area, along with millions of German citizens. Its foreign colonies were divvied out to the victorious Allies. The brazen and humiliating requirement for the Germans to admit all responsibility for the war – when Serbia, Austria, Russia, and France all held equal or greater roles for its inauguration – set the stage for the half-starved nation to pay financially for the whole war as well, to the tune of $7.5 trillion in today’s dollars. This, along with later punitive actions taken by France, set the Germans on a course of runaway inflation, Communist uprisings, economic ruin, social chaos, moral breakdown, and Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

On a more personal level, the German nation itself faced the danger of mass starvation. Between the November 11, 1918 armistice, which stopped fighting, and the signing of the Versailles treaty, the British and French insisted on continuing the strangling naval blockade of Germany.
Future U.S. President Herbert Hoover arranged for the delivery of hundreds of millions of tons of free American food to the malnourished Germans, only to have the French, Italians, and British disallow it and accuse the Americans of selfish ulterior motives for the act. During this time, eight hundred adults were dying of starvation every day in northern Germany alone. By the final tally, hundreds of thousands of Germans had starved. One disgusted British journalist visiting a Cologne, Germany hospital described "rows of babies feverish from want of food, exhausted by privation to the point where their little limbs were like slender wands, their expression hopeless, and their faces full of pain."


As I understood the germans ceased fire under another pretext than the Versailles treaty. I wonder if they really had given up if the extend of that what waited for them would have been known to them beforehand? :shock:

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:20 am

Hi M.H.,

No, Germany did not get punished in an exceptional manner. Austria-Hungary suffered far more heavily. Germany was not the main victim amongst the Central Powers in WWI.

Responsibility for WWI is widely spread, but I would suggest that there is a good case that Germany was more responsible than anyone else. For example, Germany supported the military action against Serbia by Austri-Hungary and certainly invaded neutral Belgium.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by M.H. » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:22 am

If you really still think that Germany is the main guilty and that Hitler had come to power anyhow even without the help through this "Schandvertrag" ...I can't help it.
You will have to do the studies yourself! :[]
Last edited by M.H. on Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:28 am

P.S.

That was a very partial, indeed blatantly dishonest, quote you gave.

Did Germany really lose "nearly a third of its total land area"? It doesn't look like it on the map. Besides, most of the people living in the lost areas weren't even German!

Yes, Germany lost "millions of German citizens", but most weren't actually Germans - they were Poles, French and Danish.

No, Versailles did not try to get Germany "to pay for the whole war as well". If you read the text of the Treaty it specifically states that this is not possible.

If you use such blatantly false sources, you are bound to reach false conclusions.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by M.H. » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:32 am

History tells us what happened!

What you like to leave out is the impact this Treaty had on the german population, the german state. You can downplay and reason this Treaty all you want (even call it advanced and "fair"), it was horrible enough even to make someone like Hitler look good and a real alternative.
Think about that! *nuff said*

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:33 am

PPS.

I have just checked. Germany lost 13% of its European land area, not "nearly 30%".

Sid.

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