How long was basic training?

[Darrin]

Hi Christoph,

Yes, I was referring to the Dienstzeit. Like to ask another question if I may. My father for instance was called up in 1936 [according to his file, he was not amused]. It seems that he was drafted into 7./II./IR 21 from day one [again his records indicate this], or does his record merely mean that was destined for this unit. [Civil records also indicate that he actually reported to II./IR 21 on day one]. Would I be right in assuming that training was done within the battalion/company rather than a training battalion or such like? I find this strange, unless the unit itself was being built from scratch otherwise I would think that it would be very disruptive. Incidentally he returned to this company etc., when called up for active service in 1939. On completion of the Dienstzeit he was posted to the 17 ID Ersatz Btl. It seems that the more I know, the more there is to figure out.

- Hans

During the period that the US was expanding but not suffering sig losses ALL trianing boot and spec took place at the div lev.

The ger non combat soilders were trained in some degree in combat spec.

[PaulJ]

During the period that the US was expanding but not suffering sig losses ALL trianing boot and spec took place at the div lev.

Well, yes but no.

I know what you mean. It is true that rather than running "seperate" basic training schools to pump out a stream of individuals to be assigned to units, the US Army generally formed recruits up into units, assigned them a cadre of officers and NCOs, and then had that cadre train them. Readers of this forum might be most familiar with this approach from the way it was portrayed in "Band of Brothers". The resulting units would then train further until ready and subsequently be deployed overseas.

But even then -- basic and more advanced training were seperate phases of training, sometimes done in different locations (even if the whole division, new draftees and cadre together were moved enmass to that new location). So there was still that distinction. And another thing -- this approach, I believe, applied primarily to the combat arms. How did specialists like mechanics in the div motor pool train? I would suspect that they did some kind of basic training before being moved into specialist technical units. Anyone?

The ger non combat soilders were trained in some degree in combat spec.

As are non-combat soldiers in all armies (at least to some degree).

Cheers,

[UK Lightgunner]

Well, as you see there is very little information in the net because the documents left are very hard to find. I am collecting information and documents for over ten years now and about training issues specifically for a couple of years and actual training schedules are extremely hard to come by. As I said I am working on this section for my site but it is a large project and takes time because it is not the only thing I am doing.

I cannot understand why the search in the internet was a waste of time because I gave you the information you asked for from original documents which you rejected as "I never heard". And if you are honest this is the same as "I don´t believe you" when you have no sources which actually tell you the opposite.
I think it is also understandable that I do not post all material I already have "just" for an request in a internet forum in which I can also answer the questions without posting hundreds of pages.

In my oppinion it is not relevant if your family served in HM Forces for 100 years when it comes to knowledge about training in the varuious stages of the Wehrmacht.
Just black on white information on original documents plus the additional information from my grandfathers, their brothers and other veterans can give you a picture of this comlicated topic. I offered you the essence of my research which you decided to reject.
I don´t really care but saying that your question haven ´t been answered or wouldn´t be answered is a little bit strange.

\Christoph

I think you need to get out more Christophe rather than posting silly answers like this,at no time did i`reject` or disbelieve a word you said,that is why i am a member of History forums to find the relevant information i seek,if you want to make personal comments please PM me and perhaps you could elevate the conversation away from remarks like`i dont care`bla bla bla like a 10 year old

[Christoph Awender]

I`v never heard of Basic training only lasting 6 weeks,you`v learnt hardly anything in that time unless is it is contant weapon training perhaps and the only Army to call Basic training `Boot camp` is the Americans,no one in Europe`refers` it as so.

AHA you did not disagree with what I said? So this above is your way of saying "Thanks for the info" - Interesting. Have a nice time.

[Joe Cleere]

One aspect of German training that most people seem to be overlooking was the time spent in the Reichsarbeitsdienst (RAD). Starting in 1935, German males between the ages of 18-25 served in the RAD for six months. The RAD was an auxiliary organization that served as the first step toward military service and performed important contruction tasks for all three branches of the armed forces. The RAD was where young Germans received their introduction to military discipline. They drilled with spades instead of rifles. When war came in September 1939, RAD units were used as construction troops behind the lines.

After six months in the RAD, German males were then drafted into either the Heer, Luftwaffe, or the Kriegsmarine. Men drafted into the army were given 16 weeks of training in an Ersatz und Ausbildungs Battalion in their home Wehrkreis (military district). After completion of this basic training, they were then sent to a division, specifically to that division's Ersatz Battalion, where they would receive further training before being assigned to a front line unit. This training could last up to a month and they were familiarized with front line conditions.

RAD units were sometimes armed and sent into combat, against partisans at first, and then used as last-ditch emergency units.

So that's 24 weeks in the RAD, 16 weeks in basic training (for infantry), and up to four weeks in a divisional replacement battalion. That's about 44 weeks of training prior to being placed in a combat unit.

For recruits selected for specialist training, it was even longer. Panzer and Pionier recruits received 6 months of training. In combination with their time spent in the RAD, that's 12 months spent training and doing construction work.

Later in the war, newly conscripted recruits fresh out of the RAD were probably given only a few weeks of training, four to eight weeks, and sent on to a divisional replacement battalion. Even though army recruit training was relatively short, the recruits had already been introduced to six months of military type discipline and construction work in the RAD.

The time spent in the RAD most likely served as an important precursor to actual military training and is probably one of the reasons for the discipline and stamina exhibited by German troops in the Second World War.

[Christoph Awender]

Yes Joe correct many people forget about the RAD service before they were drafted. Plus the training in the HJ which was also already an introduction into the military life.
The majority of them already knew how to handle a K98, to use a compass, build a camp etc... from their childhood on.


\Christoph

[UK Lightgunner]

So gentlemen,where can i find out the day to day training of the German infantryman?

[Darrin]

I don't read ger. Nor have I read all the offical unit diaries. But I have read several ger generals mem translated into english. In all of them there is a general belief that the ger div increased in prof right up till barrabasso. The ger sup troops were also specifically priased as exceleeent at least until mid way into the war.

The ger combat troops went into post traing at the div after they finished the spec and boot traing. Most div had replacments bat and the combat troops were not trown into the fwd units as replacments. Neither of these options were preformed by the ger enemies.

Later in the war as the ger troops became more busy with occ and buiding forts. The ger also suffered from ammmo shortages at certain points and places. Both these things resulted in delays in training.

[Darrin]

In france in 1944 there was a ger panzer grend div that was bieng convverted into a panzer div. It had been in training for at least 6 months when normandy happened. At first it was decided the div was to badly trrained to be thrown into normandy. But after a few days it was ordered into the battle.

[UK Lightgunner]

Is there NOWHERE i can get any information in English on the actuall day to day training at all?i find that a bit suspect as so much other information has been translated?

[sid guttridge]

Hi Lightgunner,

I see nothing suspect.

Such information is doubtless freely available in the original German in the IWM or National Archives, if you wish to consult it.

It is doubtless pretty uninteresting stuff, which presumably explains why it has not been published in English.

Cheers,

Sid.

[UK Lightgunner]

Hi Sid,its not uninteresting to me actually ,i am interested in comparing the differences in the training regimes of the main Allies and Axis forces as the German Army was so effective in the early years of the war,and before anyone say `tactics!`without well trained troops you wont get very far on just tactics alone IMO

Regards from the UK

[sid guttridge]

Hi UKLG,

I wouldn't for a moment argue with that.

My point is that there is nothing suspect about the absence of such information in English as it is hardly mainstream stuff.

Doubtless the various staff colleges studied German training techniques after the war but, however fascinating it may be to military technicians, this is not the stuff of popular publishing.

As I said earlier, if you want more than passing reference to German training techniques in the UK you will probably need to look in the Documents section of the IWM reading room or in the National Archives at Kew. It is also possible that the British Library holds original manuals in its Official Publications Library. (It certainly has a handbook on paramilitary training for the SA). The BL Integrated cCatalogue is on-line.

Cheers,

Sid.

[PaulJ]

Gents.

Yes to Sid's comments, except that, in the secondary literature, what you are really looking for is:

German Infantryman (1) 1933-40 David Westwood (ed) (Osprey, 2002)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184176 ... e&n=283155
This book addresses the typical training of German infantrymen, up to the early war period.

In a more scholarly vein, Robert Citino's The Path to Blitzkrieg: Doctrine and Training in the German Army, 1920-1939 (Lynne Rienner Publishers, 1999)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/155587 ... e&n=283155
which addresses the issue from a higher and more abstract level.

As Sid says, the real details you're looking for -- if they survive at all -- must be in the German archives at Freiburg. I can't speak for them on this issue, but the equivalent sort of thing for the Brit/CW and US armies iis available in the respective archives, right down to copies of course sylibi and lesson plans and training manuals actually used.

Cheers,

[Christoph Awender]

The BAMA does not hold that much documents about the training of german recruits or advanced training within the branches.
Some regulations which can be found there are certain training plans which regulate how many hours the various topics from the H.Dv.´s (Heeresdruckvorschriften) should be included in a certain time period.
Already posted an example from my collection.
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/dokumen ... epzkp2.jpg

What you can find are the well known H.Dv.which you can buy from many sources. In the document above you see which H.Dv. shall be used.

What is very hard to find and cannot find in the BAMA are actual daily schedules of soldiers. The only possibility to get them are the usual sources (fleamarkets etc..) or veterans.
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/dokumen ... ldung1.jpg

\Christoph