German POWs

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Gentlemen,

Annelie, my respects,

as I wrote some time ago in this Forum the American (more than the British) had the bad tendency, during 1945, after the discovery of the infamous lager in Germany since April '45, to apply to the POWs in their hand the same starvation and no assitance treatment used by the Nazies against the Jews and the other political prisoniers.
This was not a conduct allowed by the Geneva convention, even if the German government had been disbanded and there was no more a protection power who could repalece the German rights to assit her fellows.
It was only a sentimental (and brutal) reaction by the Americans their government and HQ allowed to be exercited both in ETO and in the States.
The Italian pows in USA had to suffer during Spring 1945 the same 800 calories diet, with obvious consequences.
The activity of the Italian Embassy at Washington DC was able, after some monts, to restore the legal conditions (Ambassador Egidio Ortona, Anni d'America, ed. Il Mulino, Bologna, 1981, Dr. Ortona, then secretary at the Italian Washington Embassy since Dec. 1944, was later the Italian Ambassador at the NATO, the UN and, at least, in USA during the Seventies).
I don't know when and how the German POWs were saved, but I remeber well the wife of Saburo Sakai, the famous Japanese Zero ace, died by starvation in Japan, in company of many tens of thousand of compatriotes, during the terrible 1945 and 1946 years. maybe it was only a consequence of that long war, maybe the Anglosaxon good will arrived late after a good represail and thin out of the same kind the American applied to the redskins and their own people after the Civil War.
War is hell.
As Goering said "Enjoy the war, gentlemen, the peace will be quite worste".
It's necessary to remember, anyway, that after this very dangerous season, typical of a certain kind of culture (don't forget the Boer camps), the Anglosaxon tendency is generally a compassionate one. It's a problem of culture, I presume.

Bye

EC

[gerhard2]

Sid:
By writing "....our insignia and cammo smocks, in most cases was a ticket upstairs" you appear to be contending that the majority of Waffen-SS men taken prisoner by the Western Allies were executed.

Do I read that correctly?
You do - did you think anybody would question that bullet ? beside the fact that several times "no prisoners" was a standing order.
For example the 12th Div. was formed from the generation of 1925/26 and fought until Spring 1945 in the West where finally 600 survivors retreated into Belgium.Then the remnants where attached to the 1st Panzer Div. for the "Spring Awakening" offensive in Hungary. Finally the 12th SS marched westward to avoid capture by the Red Army, eventually surrendering to the US Army at Enns on the 8th May 1945. There the 455 survivors from an original 1944 strength of 21,300 went into captivity.
I wonder how many of those thousands were dumb enough to raise their hands before the 8th May 1945 ?
Also I do not see your "overwhelming evidence" all I remember are the dead left on the train, the three dead in our tent and bodies taken out. If they were counted or even reported - who knows. I heard and regret about the Russian POWs in German hands and I am sure their pain was every bit as uncalled for as ours. But let me ask you this - why was I still in a POW camp under those conditions in 1947 ?
Relatives, if any left - did not find out for many years later if missed, killed in action or died in a POW camp. I did not find out about my family until the end of 1947 when my letters were returned.
I am not trying to justify or defend our conduct and fully aware that we, Germany created a lot of misery and pain but make no mistake the Allies matched evil for evil, the difference is only by degree.
Gerhard

[sid guttridge]

Hi Gerhard,

So, you are claiming that a majority of Waffen-SS men captured by the Western Allies were executed and that of 21,300 members of the 12th Waffen-SS Division captured there were only 455 survivors?

Would a specialist on the Waffen-SS care to comment on these figures?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Gerhard, you are STILL avoiding my oft repeated question: If the Western Allies killed a million German POWs after the war, where are the graves, where is the list of names of the missing and where are the many millions of aggrieved relatives?

[sid guttridge]

Hi Enrico,

Saburo Sakai did not die of starvation in 1945 or 1946. He died on 22 September 2000.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Sid,

while I agree the numbers and proportions claimed by Gerhard are debatable I pray you to read again my previous e mail. I confirm that Saburo's wife Hatsuyo died by starvation in 1946. You can read,mabout this matter, the perface of "Samurai" book. I believe in was printed in UK by André Deutsche on 1959.

Bye

EC

[oleg]

It has been dicussed here already http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 2&start=15

To quote Qvist

But there seems to be no doubt that overall mortality among Soviet POWs were very markedly worse than that of German POWs in Soviet care, even on the basis of the highest estimates for German dead in captivity.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Enrico,

My apologies. I misread your post.

Sorry,

Sid.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Take it easy, Sid. You are the best of the gang.

EC

[bf109 emil]

The city i grew up in held the largest number of German POW's in Canada during WW2. A number of these prisoners used to come daily to the family farm to dig potatoes, milk cows, etc. This last spring they had an exhibit set up showing archives, paintings, sculptures,carvings made by former German POW's which was nice to see as well as i had a chuckle as the blue jean type cap with a red top i was shocked to discover was the same cap i was given or used when i played little league baseball...lol

With the outbreak of World War Two in 1939, the military came back to Lethbridge, establishing the largest prisoner of war camp in Canada. In March 1942, an agreement was made to build a huge facility capable of holding 10,000 prisoners. Opened later in the year, the first prisoners were Austrians and Czechs, but the largest number were from the Afrika Corps after the defeat of Rommel.

The author describes daily life in the camp, tells of interactions with local citizens, and of work details outside the camp. Escape is also a major topic in this book but only two prisoners from all across Canada succeeded in getting back to Germany during the war.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_h ... tBody;col1

This short-wave radio is part of the Galt Museum Collections, and originated from Camp 133 in Lethbridge [1942-1946]. According to a September 1946 article in the Lethbridge Herald, the “powerful short wave receiving set” was “constructed secretly by German prisoners at the internment camp during the Second Great War”. The radio was the second found concealed in the camp and was discovered when the donor’s grandfather, Ted Emery, was working on the camp’s former public address system.

http://www.galtmuseum.com/exhibits-POW.htm
here is a pic of a carved wooden plane made by a former POW

German Prisoners of War in Lethbridge made a great many items out of wood: ships, tables and much more. Participants will make jigsaw puzzles out of popsicle sticks.

http://www.galtmuseum.com/collections-objects-radio.htm

[Annelie]

I was lucky enough some years ago to buy a ship in a bottle. It was made by a POW in camp 132,
August Helming No. 040673.

Its very interesting to see the many hand made objects by the POW's.

[bf109 emil]

Camp 132 was in Medicine Hat Alberta and very close or about a 100 miles east of Lethbridge

Added to the troubles at Medicine Hat in particular was a division between former German members of the French Foreign Legion, who upon their return to Germany had been placed in the German army, and with the other prisoners. As John Melady writes in Escape from Canada!: The Untold Story of German POWs in Canada 1939-1945:

The Gestapo and Nazi element within Camp 132, however, always looked upon the legionnaires with disdain. At times they went so far as to blame this group for the German defeats in Africa. They claimed that the legionnaires had not fought as well as they should have, with the result that the Axis had been forced into premature capitulation

http://www.albertasource.ca/lawcases/cr ... lberta.htm
The Medicine Hat POW Murder

For many observers, the murder of Karl Lehmann that took place at the Medicine Hat POW Camp during World War II is best summed up in the outcome—four German prisoners executed in a sobering spectacle that was the largest mass hanging in Canadian history since the Riel Rebellion in 1885.

But that is only one significant aspect of the events at Internment Camp 132, as the case actually involved two murders with interesting outcomes.

In a lower-profile case, August Plaszek was beaten and then hung by his fellow August Plaszek, June 27, 1946prisoners on June 22, 1943. One of the three accused would be executed by hanging in June 1946, his last words being, “My Fuehrer, I follow thee.” The second murder was that of Karl Lehmann, killed on Sept. 10, 1944, the result of which on December 1946 all four of the accused were executed by hanging.

The RCMP investigated both cases and all of the accused were tried separately in Medicine Hat. The trials were held in civil rather than military courts, and the executions at Lethbridge Jail were also a civil responsibility.

http://www.albertasource.ca/lawcases/cr ... murder.htm

[bf109 emil]

POW in Canada cutting woodhttp://www.siouxnarrows-nestorfalls.ca/ ... pow-camps/

[Johann-45]

This pic was took in 1955 on the return of some POWs...

Speaks for itself...

Jb

[bf109 emil]

was this pic taken on a re-union of POW's from the Soviet Union back to Germany???

[Johann-45]

I wouldnt say a reunion but a group returning from a Russian POW concentration camp,

Regards and Happy new year.

Jb