60th Anniversary of Victory

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
Pirx
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Post by Pirx »

Beppo Schmidt wrote: Who are Kaluski and Zyrinovski?
Marian Kaluski lives in Australia and sends to europe "good advices" what Poland shall do. For example he has idea that Ukraine shall be divided becouse all Ukrainians are nationalists and are dangerous. :D
Zyrinovski is a populistic polititian in Russia. He has also fantastic ideas like Kaluski.

Dear Oleg.
I guess that you aren't Zyrinovskis supporter, coz i read your posts on this forum, and i know You are ballanced and well informed men. Orzel really goes much too far.
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Dackel Staffel
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Post by Dackel Staffel »

Hi,

Ok, now I get it, it's Jirinovsky. The translation from cyrillic to the roman alphabet.... :?

So long.
All we need it's a Dackel in each pocket
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Orzel
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Post by Orzel »

old joke in Poland, family awaits the return of a long lost son who was deported by the NKVD in 1939, they anxiously pace the train station, but they have no idea as to how the relative will look after so many years of hardships, finally the mother sees an elder looking gentleman and immediately yells that's him that's him thats our Janek, later the family asks how she recognized him, she says what do you mean he was wearing the same clothes when they took him away...
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Rosselsprung
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60th Anniversary of Victory

Post by Rosselsprung »

I must say Orzel, the Soviet Army could have just stopped at the Vistula and left Poland to rot. And why the Russian bashing? By any stretch of facts, Russia did an excellent job of bouncing back and using all the advantages it had to defeat Germany.
The problem with you Russians is pretty much the same as with Americans you are fed from birth how great and wonderful you are and you start crying like little babies when the truth is tolld to you. now here is the truth in most Poles eyes you are crude, illiterate, dirty, lice infested, mongoloid hordes.
I must say, that is like a Goebbels quote. Orzel, in your world view, is every country in which a Pole has been to part of Poland? Also, I would assume your views don't differ much from the Nazis, only that the master race is the Polish one.
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Post by Jason Pipes »

Orzel has been banned from this site.
Brax Finkbrau
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Post by Brax Finkbrau »

Well Oleg, I understand that your russian historians have elaborated Warsaw Uprising very well! Even better than polish!!
It was badly planned, badly executed and the most important: not coordinated with Soviet Army.
I guess your historians made deep study about uprising after the war when I read your posts. Similar to this which made your profesor with his team in Katyn!!! He also after long studies discovered that polish officers were murdered by Germans!!! So please give your sourses about the next case - Warsaw Uprising, because I still can not agree that conquering and holding the million citizen city for 2 months can not be qualify as a great military succes.
And as it comes to coordination with your army. You can find the answer if you read the list of invited guests on 60th anniversary in Moscow. I think it means during the war our states were allied or just on the same site! So what you mean when you write about coordination with your army? Should polish leaders do what? Invite Zukov to Warsaw? Or maybe direct the date of uprising to Stalin? So, probably it means that your profesors have not done theirs homework very well, because decision about date of uprising was made one day before the fact.
But, that is not important detail for you I think!
And I know why!
You still repeating the soviet (totalitarian) propaganda. So I think the discussion with you is pointless!!! :(
I would like to ask Jason to consider if soviet-totalitarian propaganda can be present on this forum.

And last but not least. I do not think that Poles do not like Russians. I like them very much and love russian literature like many of my compatriots. But we do not like the lie! Lie which is in totalitarism. Oleg, in this particular case stop multiply lies.
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oleg
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Post by oleg »

Brax Finkbrau wrote:Well Oleg, I understand that your russian historians have elaborated Warsaw Uprising very well! Even better than polish!!
It was badly planned, badly executed and the most important: not coordinated with Soviet Army.
I guess your historians made deep study about uprising after the war when I read your posts. Similar to this which made your profesor with his team in Katyn!!! He also after long studies discovered that polish officers were murdered by Germans!!! So please give your sourses about the next case - Warsaw Uprising, because I still can not agree that conquering and holding the million citizen city for 2 months can not be qualify as a great military succes.
And as it comes to coordination with your army. You can find the answer if you read the list of invited guests on 60th anniversary in Moscow. I think it means during the war our states were allied or just on the same site! So what you mean when you write about coordination with your army? Should polish leaders do what? Invite Zukov to Warsaw? Or maybe direct the date of uprising to Stalin? So, probably it means that your profesors have not done theirs homework very well, because decision about date of uprising was made one day before the fact.
But, that is not important detail for you I think!
And I know why!
You still repeating the soviet (totalitarian) propaganda. So I think the discussion with you is pointless!!! :(
I would like to ask Jason to consider if soviet-totalitarian propaganda can be present on this forum.

And last but not least. I do not think that Poles do not like Russians. I like them very much and love russian literature like many of my compatriots. But we do not like the lie! Lie which is in totalitarism. Oleg, in this particular case stop multiply lies.
Well Oleg, I understand that your russian historians have elaborated Warsaw Uprising very well! Even better than polish!!
It was badly planned, badly executed and the most important: not coordinated with Soviet Army.
I guess your historians made deep study about uprising after the war when I read your posts. Similar to this which made your profesor with his team in Katyn!!!
What my professor?
He also after long studies discovered that polish officers were murdered by Germans!!!
Or you mean Burdenko –how is he mine?
So please give your sourses about the next case - Warsaw Uprising, because I still can not agree that conquering and holding the million citizen city for 2 months can not be qualify as a great military succes.
What should I give you? The uprising was doomed to fail (and it did) without an external help. People in charge of the uprising did not insure proper cooperation with the only forces that could provide such an aide. Even more so they utterly antagonized the government of the country to which these forces were subordinated –that’s a bad planning.

And as it comes to coordination with your army. You can find the answer if you read the list of invited guests on 60th anniversary in Moscow. I think it means during the war our states were allied or just on the same site!
First of all –how is that relevant? Secondly German and Japanese head of states are also on the least –so what was your point exactly? As for the being on the same side… the AK was subordinated to Polish government in exile with which Soviet Union broke diplomatic relations after the Katyn and if my memory serves me well they were not restored by 1944.
So what you mean when you write about coordination with your army? Should polish leaders do what? Invite Zukov to Warsaw? Or maybe direct the date of uprising to Stalin?
Firstly forces in front of Warsaw were under command of Rokosvskiy, secondly given the fact that there were no way in hell that Poles could have held the city on their own it was the basic necessity to coordinate the pans and time table of the uprising the STAVKA. The fact that simple notion seems so outrageous to you is rather amusing.

You still repeating the soviet (totalitarian) propaganda. So I think the discussion with you is pointless!!! :(
First even if I was using propaganda (which I don’t) it would not mean that it is wrong by default. Secondly unless AK manage to liberate Warsaw and hold it till the next Soviet offensive I don’t really see how it would be possible to argue that it was brilliant.

And last but not least. I do not think that Poles do not like Russians. I like them very much and love russian literature like many of my compatriots. But we do not like the lie! Lie which is in totalitarism. Oleg, in this particular case stop multiply lies.
Right.. like Russians but hate Russia –been there before. And what lies?
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Post by Shmeiker »

Well, again we come to the question whether a simple private can be held responsible for the decisions made by high command?

If somebody thinks that he is not fully responsinble (although it can often be hard to totally exclude this responsibility) then Soviet soldiers did a great job driving Germans from Poland (I deliberately do not use words liberated or "liberated" right now). Soviets were dying on Polish soil while fighting with Germans. An even though they had no intention or good heart to set Poland free - they still deserve a gratitude for this. After all, Poles never counted on Soviets "good hearts".

Let's be straight - POLES WOULD BE NO MORE (right now) IF RED ARMY DID NOT HEAVILY PARTICIPATED IN DEFEATING NAZI GERMANY. Germans planned complete annihilation of Polish nation. And although Soviets were depriving Poles of their property, discriminating, torturing and killing many of them, they did not plan such an onslaught like it was performed by Germans.

---

In my opinion current Russians really suffer from deep illusion and dream of old, imperialistic good days, when they had half of Europe and some other parts of the world under their disposal. And they try very hard to reinstall it. That is why they keep stirring in Georgia, that is why they support rebels in Transnistria, that is why they were so openly trying to promote a Rusofilistic candidate during presidential elections in Ucraine. It simply does not get to current Russians that these times are over. [I also heard from a Russian in Warsaw, just half a year ago, that: Kura nie ptica, Polsha nie zagranica" - which can be translated as: chicken is no bird, Poland is no foreign state; that is widely viewed in Poland as an attitude like: "we'll be back"].

That is also why Putin proclamed that Yalta agreement brought to Central and Eastern Europe "freedom and democracy" - it is a pathetic lie and absolute proof that Russia will use any instruments, including shamefully twisting history, to expand their range of influence.

---

to Oleg

Question that: "what would have [happened] to these Poles if the Red Army stopped on Bug in 1944?" is simply stupid.

Why? Becasue it includes supposition that Soviets did some favour to Poles by driving Germans from Poland. It is a wrong assumption becasue Soviets never wanted to liberate Poland. They wanted to defeat Hitler and get to Berlin as fast as they could - that included faster then Allies. Just because Poland was on their way to Berlin, they crossed it. So if Poles should be grateful to Red Army and USRR I reply: thank you, but no thank you.

Soviets removed Germans and in the same time they imposed communistic and totalitarian opression on Poland. Soviets were killing Poles, Soviets were controlling the whole country eliminating anyone who wanted to make Poland independent, Soviets were sucking resources from this country and made Poland backwarded comparing to other European states, like Germany (which was equally destroyed at the end of war) for tens of years.

Thus like I have a gratitude for simple Soviet soldiers who fought away a doom that was conducted by German army in Poland, I have no gratitude to those who signed pacts with Hitler (R+M pact), who joined Hitler in his assult on Poland, and who imposed by force totalitarian regime after the war on all lands they only could. Don't expect any Pole to be grateful for that.

---

once more to Oleg (and to those who are interested how current politics really work in some not-so-disclosed way - others can simply skip this part)

I really wonder why you mentioned mr. Kaluski and presented his hilarious ideas claiming that he was published in Poland [his article is about Polish hidden involvement in Ucraine intended to take over the power, it states that Ucraine should be divided and has no power nor right to exist, and other complitely idiotic and retarded stuff]. First of all: it was NOT published in Poland. It was a provocation set by Russian Ministery of Foreign Affairs (MFA), who got an article written by a men living in Australia (and who emigrated from Poland long ago). Then Russian MFA has sent this article to Russian media stating that it was pulished in "Tygodnik Powszechny" (one of Polish newspapers, who happen from time to time to really publish antirussian articles). Russian MFA lied like a dog making this statement - "Tygodnik Powszechny" has never published it, but Russian media did not check it (or did not want to check it). To develop it, the article was translated and published in popular Russian review under the name of "Tygodnik Powszechny", so that Russians and Ucrainians could read "what Poles really think about Ucraine, and how treachous they are". After Polish intervention Russians removed the name of the newspaper and have put some "WirtualnaPolonia" as a source (internet newsleter, no paper publishing) - I assure you that nobody has ever heard in Poland about any WirtualnaPolonia, it is some backwater bullshit, nobody cares what they present, surely they do not present a Polish view on anything. Nevetheless Russians were presenting the article and an official position of Poland presented by a very reliable source. It was shown (I repeat, some backwater scum) together with articles from "The Financial Times", "Le Figaro" and "Algemaine Zeitung" - pittiful provocation that can be "bought" only by those who have no idea what is going on.

And here we come to Mr. Oleg - he presents himself as a person who does know what is going on. So either he lies, and he knows s..t or he deliberetly multiplies Russian provocation knowing that Americans, Germans, French and other people can not see whether it is true or false (and they have full right not to know, after all it really is complicated).

P.S. The web page of "Tygodnik Powszechny" has been hacked and closed down by melicious internet attack next day after the whole situation. All their HDD where destroyed and data lost. All this "accidently" happened right after the Russian provocation, so they had serious difficulties to make any intervention (like publishing disclamation on their page).
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Post by oleg »

In my opinion current Russians really suffer from deep illusion and dream of old, imperialistic good days, when they had half of Europe and some other parts of the world under their disposal. And they try very hard to reinstall it. That is why they keep stirring in Georgia, that is why they support rebels in Transnistria, that is why they were so openly trying to promote a Rusofilistic candidate during presidential elections in Ucraine. It simply does not get to current Russians that these times are over. [I also heard from a Russian in Warsaw, just half a year ago, that: Kura nie ptica, Polsha nie zagranica" - which can be translated as: chicken is no bird, Poland is no foreign state; that is widely viewed in Poland as an attitude like: "we'll be back"].

That is also why Putin proclamed that Yalta agreement brought to Central and Eastern Europe "freedom and democracy" - it is a pathetic lie and absolute proof that Russia will use any instruments, including shamefully twisting history, to expand their range of influence.
Your opinion is based on what exactly? As for the Transdesntria, Georgia and whatever have you Russia has national interests in this regions just like EU and US has theirs –nothing wrong with that and it has hardly have anything to do with restoration of some empire –the threat which mostly exists in inflamed minds of some Eastern Europeans. As for how Russian proverbs viewed in Poland –jus not take much to scare you.. Well be assured nobody will try to take over you and this attitude –not unique –it is the same way US citizens view Canada.

Question that: "what would have [happened] to these Poles if the Red Army stopped on Bug in 1944?" is simply stupid.

Why? Becasue it includes supposition that Soviets did some favour to Poles by driving Germans from Poland. It is a wrong assumption becasue Soviets never wanted to liberate Poland. They wanted to defeat Hitler and get to Berlin as fast as they could - that included faster then Allies. Just because Poland was on their way to Berlin, they crossed it. So if Poles should be grateful to Red Army and USRR I reply: thank you, but no thank you.

Soviets removed Germans and in the same time they imposed communistic and totalitarian opression on Poland. Soviets were killing Poles, Soviets were controlling the whole country eliminating anyone who wanted to make Poland independent, Soviets were sucking resources from this country and made Poland backwarded comparing to other European states, like Germany (which was equally destroyed at the end of war) for tens of years.

Thus like I have a gratitude for simple Soviet soldiers who fought away a doom that was conducted by German army in Poland, I have no gratitude to those who signed pacts with Hitler (R+M pact), who joined Hitler in his assult on Poland, and who imposed by force totalitarian regime after the war on all lands they only could. Don't expect any Pole to be grateful for that.
What stupid is avoiding question –by labeling it stupid. You bet you ass we did you a favor. We could have taken a break –thus allow Germans transfer reserve from East to West and insuring that no landing would have taken place or even if it would it would not be able to break through. As for being backward and sucking – you being backward compared to the rest of Europe before and while you at that calculate how much you paid for natural resources that you bought from USSR at the fraction of the world prices and then compare it to what you’ve imported. Now I repeat my question what would have happened to Poles if Red Army stopped in 1944?
really wonder why you mentioned mr. Kaluski and presented his hilarious ideas claiming that he was published in Poland [his article is about Polish hidden involvement in Ucraine intended to take over the power, it states that Ucraine should be divided and has no power nor right to exist, and other complitely idiotic and retarded stuff]. First of all: it was NOT published in Poland. It was a provocation set by Russian Ministery of Foreign Affairs (MFA), who got an article written by a men living in Australia (and who emigrated from Poland long ago). Then Russian MFA has sent this article to Russian media stating that it was pulished in "Tygodnik Powszechny" (one of Polish newspapers, who happen from time to time to really publish antirussian articles). Russian MFA lied like a dog making this statement - "Tygodnik Powszechny" has never published it, but Russian media did not check it (or did not want to check it). To develop it, the article was translated and published in popular Russian review under the name of "Tygodnik Powszechny", so that Russians and Ucrainians could read "what Poles really think about Ucraine, and how treachous they are". After Polish intervention Russians removed the name of the newspaper and have put some "WirtualnaPolonia" as a source (internet newsleter, no paper publishing) - I assure you that nobody has ever heard in Poland about any WirtualnaPolonia, it is some backwater bullshit, nobody cares what they present, surely they do not present a Polish view on anything. Nevetheless Russians were presenting the article and an official position of Poland presented by a very reliable source. It was shown (I repeat, some backwater scum) together with articles from "The Financial Times", "Le Figaro" and "Algemaine Zeitung" - pittiful provocation that can be "bought" only by those who have no idea what is going on.

And here we come to Mr. Oleg - he presents himself as a person who does know what is going on. So either he lies, and he knows s..t or he deliberetly multiplies Russian provocation knowing that Americans, Germans, French and other people can not see whether it is true or false (and they have full right not to know, after all it really is complicated).

P.S. The web page of "Tygodnik Powszechny" has been hacked and closed down by melicious internet attack next day after the whole situation. All their HDD where destroyed and data lost. All this "accidently" happened right after the Russian provocation, so they had serious difficulties to make any intervention (like publishing disclamation on their page).
Does the link I use points to "Tygodnik? Did I ever mentioned that newspaper? Did the article I gave the link was published by the Polish website –if the answer to above is yes then the idea behind you last paragraph is what exactly? By the way where did you get an information about the whole MFA affair
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Post by Brax Finkbrau »

I am sorry I respond so late. I had some problems with my computer. But do not connect it with 'Tygodnik Powszechny' problems :wink: .
oleg wrote:
Well Oleg, I understand that your russian historians have elaborated Warsaw Uprising very well! Even better than polish!!
It was badly planned, badly executed and the most important: not coordinated with Soviet Army.
I guess your historians made deep study about uprising after the war when I read your posts. Similar to this which made your profesor with his team in Katyn!!!
What my professor?
I have no idea who your professor is. YOUR means russian. You have got it in the first sentence.
So what you mean when you write about coordination with your army? Should polish leaders do what? Invite Zukov to Warsaw? Or maybe direct the date of uprising to Stalin?
Firstly forces in front of Warsaw were under command of Rokosvskiy, secondly given the fact that there were no way in hell that Poles could have held the city on their own it was the basic necessity to coordinate the pans and time table of the uprising the STAVKA. The fact that simple notion seems so outrageous to you is rather amusing.
Funny, here you uderstand what YOUR means. Can you only identify with Soviet army, not with some professors?

I think for you bad executed and planned is equal with word coordinated. So, lets try to imagine polish officer sended to establish contact with Soviet commanders. I see no other possibility than he would be immediately arrested and sended to Lubianka or direct to Siberia, like many others. And you still omit the fact that Warsaw Uprising was spontaneous. Underground commanders couln't stop oridinary people's reaction.

And as it comes to coordination with your army. You can find the answer if you read the list of invited guests on 60th anniversary in Moscow. I think it means during the war our states were allied or just on the same site!
First of all –how is that relevant?
It is significant example when you act like not understanding the simpliest things. Same with word YOUR :wink: Your...sorry Soviet army should behave like allies and did all they could to help rebels. At least give permission to land for western allies planes with amunition on Soviet site. Even if Stalin had not idea about oncomoing uprising, which I don't belive.
Secondly German and Japanese head of states are also on the least –so what was your point exactly? As for the being on the same side… the AK was subordinated to Polish government in exile with which Soviet Union broke diplomatic relations after the Katyn and if my memory serves me well they were not restored by 1944.
:shock: Now I am really astonished! If my memory serves me well Russia as a successor of Soviet Union is formally still in a state of war with Japan. Personally I do not see anything wrong in that. Russia can invite who they want. But please when you will celebrate R-M pact anniversary, do not invite victims of this agreement.
And last but not least. I do not think that Poles do not like Russians. I like them very much and love russian literature like many of my compatriots. But we do not like the lie! Lie which is in totalitarism. Oleg, in this particular case stop multiply lies.
Right.. like Russians but hate Russia –been there before. And what lies?
To be easier for you: we do not like russian imperialism.
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Post by Shmeiker »

oleg wrote:Your opinion is based on what exactly? As for the Transdesntria, Georgia and whatever have you Russia has national interests in this regions just like EU and US has theirs –nothing wrong with that and it has hardly have anything to do with restoration of some empire –the threat which mostly exists in inflamed minds of some Eastern Europeans. As for how Russian proverbs viewed in Poland –jus not take much to scare you.. Well be assured nobody will try to take over you and this attitude –not unique –it is the same way US citizens view Canada.
My opinion is based, for example, on the words of Russian President Vladimir Putin - they were just like I quoted them. He stated in official opinion that Yalta agreement brought to Eastern Europe democracy and freedom. That is a bullshit of a year, in my humble opinion. That is twisting historical facts for tha sake of presenting USRR in favourable view.

As for "national interests" - I do not want to speak about US, becasue I have not enough information about it, I live in EU after all and know it better anyway. And I know that EU does not smuggle weapons to rebels uprising against worldwidely recognised government of Moldova (government recognised also by Russia). Russians do that. EU does not threaten any country that they will send forces to anihilate their army unless they allow rebels to roam freely. Russia does that to Georgia, when Georgians have problems with their own rebels. Sorry to break it to you, but in common understanding this is not a usual way of securing "national interests" - these are imperialistic maneuvers.

And as for Ucraine - please, do you want to pretend that Russia did not try do exercise open influence over elections in this country pointing directly whom they want for Ucrainian President (namely Yanukovic) ? What was it? Russia thinks that she can choose presidents in Ucraine, because it wants to see it as a matter of "national interest"? Not to mention that after falsified 2nd round of election, won by Yanukovic of course, Putin was they first head of state to congratulate him.
oleg wrote: What stupid is avoiding question –by labeling it stupid. You bet you ass we did you a favor. We could have taken a break –thus allow Germans transfer reserve from East to West and insuring that no landing would have taken place or even if it would it would not be able to break through. As for being backward and sucking – you being backward compared to the rest of Europe before and while you at that calculate how much you paid for natural resources that you bought from USSR at the fraction of the world prices and then compare it to what you’ve imported. Now I repeat my question what would have happened to Poles if Red Army stopped in 1944?
Sorry, Oleg, but you simply proof you have problems with reading. I did not avoid your question - I tried to show that it is immaterial and based on wrong assumptions. If you try to state that Soviets could "take a break" you simply do not know basic facts (of more likely, you "suspend" them temporarily, becasue they are not convenient for you). Russians did not want to take any breaks, they wanted to get to Berlin as fast as possible. They did it not becasue they loved Poles, nor wanted to do any favours to Poles. Poland simply lied on their shortest way, so they marched through it. If geographical posions would be different Soviets would not do that. So cut this crap about Red Army doing any favours to anyone by themselves (I do not demand that Red Army would do any favours to anyone of course - becasue why should they, I just oppose Oleg's assumption that they did any).

However if you insist on this silly question I can say only one thing, which I already said in my first post - POLES WOULD BE NO MORE (right now) IF RED ARMY DID NOT HEAVILY PARTICIPATED IN DEFEATING NAZI GERMANY. That also means that any delay of Soviets forces would mean more deaths of Poles killed by Germans. It is worth to mention however, that when Soviets came they started killing Poles as well (although not on the same scale as well), so for many Poles situation did not change at all. They were still in opressive state.

As for postwar development, transfer of resources and all those "favours" USRR gave to Poland, Czechoslovakia, all 3 Baltic states and Hungary - I believe it is not a subject for this forum. However if you speak about Poland being backwarded before WWII please be careful, becasue it shows you have no info about it, and just speak for the sake of speaking. For your information before the WWII Poland was among fastest growing economies in Europe, having one of the strongest currencies in the region. In the same time Soviet population was from time to time starving to death and committing acts of canibalism in dispare for food (for example in Ucraine in 20's counquered by USRR and having some best soil in the world).

And about all this help from USRR after the war and untill 1989 - buhahahahaha. [Sorry, I know is is childish but I just could not resist.] The best description of how hopeless and backwarding was this "help" form USRR let's look and a matter which is closer to the topic of this forum, namely Germany. Compare gap in economic development between Western and Eastern Germany before they joined each other, compare standards of living, compare income per capita. Do you sincerely think that those Eastern Germans right after the WWII were more stupid, more lazy, less organized or in any other way more backwarded comparing to their Western fellows? I do not think so. THEY WERE JUST RECEIVING "HELP" FROM USRR FOR 50 YEARS. That is what made the difference. The same applies to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia - all those states most likely would do much better if communistic and totalitarian rule was not pressed on them by "liberating" Red Army. As I stated - I base it assumption on comparing level of development in West and East Germany - conclusions are straightforward. The states I mentioned had to subdue to Soviet commands and absurd communistic economy. You speak about cheap reasouces supplied to those states. Well, I can speak about coal, food and machinery transported to USRR from Poland for which we used to receive only a fraction of production costs from our fellow "Slavic" brothers on the East.
oleg wrote:Does the link I use points to "Tygodnik? Did I ever mentioned that newspaper? Did the article I gave the link was published by the Polish website –if the answer to above is yes then the idea behind you last paragraph is what exactly? By the way where did you get an information about the whole MFA affair
Obviously the link you supplied does not mention "Tygodnik Powszechny". Of course the article we are talking about was published in Polish language on the webside run by Poles. BUT IN ANY WAY IT CANNOT BE TAKEN AS A POLISH OPINON ON THE SUBJECT !

I mentioned "Tygodnik Powszechny" to show how Russian authorities are trying to manipulate media and opinions of people (namely in this situation Russians and Ucrainians). They took article from redundant, completely unknown webside (in addition article was written by a person who for years or even decades stays in Australia, and from this perspective talks about current developmets in Ucraine), and put it together with articles from the most famous newspapers of the world, to make it look as if it was official opinion or at least opinion widely acknowledged in Poland.

That would be the same as if I searched net for some outskirt Russian webpage talking some nationalistic or communistic bullshit and try to present it as official believes at Kremlin. Or if I would choose some German, American, French or any other nationalistic and backwarded webpage and try to pretent that it speaks for all Germans, Americans, Frenth or any other.

And, sorry to inform you Oleg, you try to manipulate in the very same way - you just picked up some crappy article written by nationalistic lunatic, and try to present it as a general Polish opinion.
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Post by oleg »

Brax Finkbrau wrote:I am sorry I respond so late. I had some problems with my computer. But do not connect it with 'Tygodnik Powszechny' problems :wink: .
oleg wrote:
Well Oleg, I understand that your russian historians have elaborated Warsaw Uprising very well! Even better than polish!!
It was badly planned, badly executed and the most important: not coordinated with Soviet Army.
I guess your historians made deep study about uprising after the war when I read your posts. Similar to this which made your profesor with his team in Katyn!!!
What my professor?
I have no idea who your professor is. YOUR means russian. You have got it in the first sentence.
So what you mean when you write about coordination with your army? Should polish leaders do what? Invite Zukov to Warsaw? Or maybe direct the date of uprising to Stalin?
Firstly forces in front of Warsaw were under command of Rokosvskiy, secondly given the fact that there were no way in hell that Poles could have held the city on their own it was the basic necessity to coordinate the pans and time table of the uprising the STAVKA. The fact that simple notion seems so outrageous to you is rather amusing.
Funny, here you uderstand what YOUR means. Can you only identify with Soviet army, not with some professors?

I think for you bad executed and planned is equal with word coordinated. So, lets try to imagine polish officer sended to establish contact with Soviet commanders. I see no other possibility than he would be immediately arrested and sended to Lubianka or direct to Siberia, like many others. And you still omit the fact that Warsaw Uprising was spontaneous. Underground commanders couln't stop oridinary people's reaction.

And as it comes to coordination with your army. You can find the answer if you read the list of invited guests on 60th anniversary in Moscow. I think it means during the war our states were allied or just on the same site!
First of all –how is that relevant?
It is significant example when you act like not understanding the simpliest things. Same with word YOUR :wink: Your...sorry Soviet army should behave like allies and did all they could to help rebels. At least give permission to land for western allies planes with amunition on Soviet site. Even if Stalin had not idea about oncomoing uprising, which I don't belive.
Secondly German and Japanese head of states are also on the least –so what was your point exactly? As for the being on the same side… the AK was subordinated to Polish government in exile with which Soviet Union broke diplomatic relations after the Katyn and if my memory serves me well they were not restored by 1944.
:shock: Now I am really astonished! If my memory serves me well Russia as a successor of Soviet Union is formally still in a state of war with Japan. Personally I do not see anything wrong in that. Russia can invite who they want. But please when you will celebrate R-M pact anniversary, do not invite victims of this agreement.
And last but not least. I do not think that Poles do not like Russians. I like them very much and love russian literature like many of my compatriots. But we do not like the lie! Lie which is in totalitarism. Oleg, in this particular case stop multiply lies.
Right.. like Russians but hate Russia –been there before. And what lies?
To be easier for you: we do not like russian imperialism.
I have no idea who your professor is. YOUR means russian. You have got it in the first sentence.
It is generally not a good practice to refer to a person that you have no idea about.
Funny, here you uderstand what YOUR means. Can you only identify with Soviet army, not with some professors?

I think for you bad executed and planned is equal with word coordinated. So, lets try to imagine polish officer sended to establish contact with Soviet commanders. I see no other possibility than he would be immediately arrested and sended to Lubianka or direct to Siberia, like many others. And you still omit the fact that Warsaw Uprising was spontaneous. Underground commanders couln't stop oridinary people's reaction.
let me get it straight:

You claiming that USSR was an allied power to Poland. AK stared and uprising that can be only successful if the Soviet Army managed to link up with it. At the same time Poles did not coordinate their activity the only force that could help because they did not trust it but still hoping that it would help somehow? One question: what exactly they smoking at the time? I mean, the logic is very straightforward. If I know that my enterprise could only succeed with outside help -I’d better make every damn effort to ensure that outside help comes before I start anything. Where is the puzzle exactly?

It is significant example when you act like not understanding the simpliest things. Same with word YOUR icon_wink.gif Your...sorry Soviet army should behave like allies and did all they could to help rebels. At least give permission to land for western allies planes with amunition on Soviet site. Even if Stalin had not idea about oncomoing uprising, which I don't belive.
First of all Soviet Army was running out of steam after very hard an long offensive, it was in know position to help the rebels -not that it did not try. And the rebels would have know it -if they asked before starting anything. Secondly Soviet authorities believed that most dropped supplies would end in the hands of Germans anyway and they were right. And thirdly short of parachuting an entire tank Army with Patton jumping out first no allied drop would have saved the uprising. And btw let’s not wiggle here -AK uprising was practically and quiet openly as Anti-Soviet in nature as it was Anti-German. Can’t hate someone and hope that he/she help at the same time.
Now I am really astonished! If my memory serves me well Russia as a successor of Soviet Union is formally still in a state of war with Japan. Personally I do not see anything wrong in that. Russia can invite who they want. But please when you will celebrate R-M pact anniversary, do not invite victims of this agreement.
In case had not notice Russian Federation had not benefitted in any way from R-M so we have nothing to celebrate even if we wanted to -which we don’t. Now, Ukraine, Belorussia and one certain Baltic country on the other hand Btw, oh victim of Yalta since you are so bent on fighting its injustice I assume there are talks with Germany regarding return of Silesia?
To be easier for you: we do not like russian imperialism.
Right.. But since no matter what Russia does I imperialist by default (at least as far as Poland is concerned) ...
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Post by minimus »

Good post Shmeiker, bit longish but good.

BTW, do you think there are many Russians that do not miss "the good old days"? They don't seem to be visiting the internet anyway.

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Post by oleg »

My opinion is based, for example, on the words of Russian President Vladimir Putin - they were just like I quoted them. He stated in official opinion that Yalta agreement brought to Eastern Europe democracy and freedom. That is a bullshit of a year, in my humble opinion. That is twisting historical facts for tha sake of presenting USRR in favourable view.

Find me the speech that Putin had maid that contains those word. There was Foreign Ministry commentary published on February 12 that contained something like that but even that commentary was not worded the way you say it was. What was said is The most important and well known result of the conference was coordination of the plans for the final defeat of Nazi Germany and Japan, clarification of the main principles delaing with post-war world order – including creation of the UN. As a result of Yalta-Potsdam accords Poland acquired significant territories to its west and north . It is somewhat cynical for our Polish partners to complain about Yalta. …. The passage which in Polish (and some other Western press ) was made so famous was worded approximately like that: In Yalta allied powers confirmed their common wish to see Poland strong, fee, independent and democratic No more no less.
As for "national interests" - I do not want to speak about US, becasue I have not enough information about it, I live in EU after all and know it better anyway. And I know that EU does not smuggle weapons to rebels uprising against worldwidely recognised government of Moldova (government recognised also by Russia)
No but EU did zilch then worldwidely recognised government of Moldova(noth current though) was ethnically cleansing the territories. As for Arms smuggling do you have any tangible proof aside form some gossips that it is in fact official Russian policy?
EU does not threaten any country that they will send forces to anihilate their army unless they allow rebels to roam freely. Russia does that to Georgia, when Georgians have problems with their own rebels.
What exactly you allude to? Show me one official Russian note threatening to annihilate Georgian Army –oh and btw Russia repeatedly rejected requests of mutinous Georgian regions to in clued them in RF –how that coordinates with Imperialistic Russia image?
Sorry to break it to you, but in common understanding this is not a usual way of securing "national interests" - these are imperialistic maneuvers.
Right as soon as you show the shred of proof…
And as for Ucraine - please, do you want to pretend that Russia did not try do exercise open influence over elections in this country pointing directly whom they want for Ucrainian President (namely Yanukovic) ? What was it? Russia thinks that she can choose presidents in Ucraine, because it wants to see it as a matter of "national interest"? Not to mention that after falsified 2nd round of election, won by Yanukovic of course, Putin was they first head of state to congratulate him.
Where does it say that Russia cannot point? Is there some international law that says it can’t? Russia also said that it would like to see Bush being reelected (now there is something Putin actually said)- does that mean that Russa interfered with elections in the US? As for falsifications –there were plenty on both sides in both tours –in general portraying Yankovich as big democrat is laughable –as someone pointed out it was victory of millionaires over milliardears.
Sorry, Oleg, but you simply proof you have problems with reading. I did not avoid your question - I tried to show that it is immaterial and based on wrong assumptions. If you try to state that Soviets could "take a break" you simply do not know basic facts (of more likely, you "suspend" them temporarily, becasue they are not convenient for you). Russians did not want to take any breaks, they wanted to get to Berlin as fast as possible.
No I don’t you began to answer the question that was not asked and I pointed that to you. As for these little what if. Taking a break for several months actually could have been very beneficial in terms of reaching Berlin. Letting allies and Nazis pound each other into pulp somewhere in Normandy, making sure that first need significant time to replenish themselves to resume any kind of offensive and that second squandered their mobile reserves would make future Soviet advance far less problematic. Obviously that was not the thinking.
However if you insist on this silly question I can say only one thing, which I already said in my first post - POLES WOULD BE NO MORE (right now) IF RED ARMY DID NOT HEAVILY PARTICIPATED IN DEFEATING NAZI GERMANY. That also means that any delay of Soviets forces would mean more deaths of Poles killed by Germans. It is worth to mention however, that when Soviets came they started killing Poles as well (although not on the same scale as well), so for many Poles situation did not change at all. They were still in opressive state.
For most Poles situation changed drastically since their chance for all intents and purposes theye were not faced anymore with perspective of being exterminated as a nation. Poles may hate all they like –the simple fact is if it was not for USSR there would be no Poland. If you think this is nothing to be grateful for .. well let’s not go there.

As for postwar development, transfer of resources and all those "favours" USRR gave to Poland, Czechoslovakia, all 3 Baltic states and Hungary - I believe it is not a subject for this forum. However if you speak about Poland being backwarded before WWII please be careful, becasue it shows you have no info about it, and just speak for the sake of speaking. For your information before the WWII Poland was among fastest growing economies in Europe, having one of the strongest currencies in the region. In the same time Soviet population was from time to time starving to death and committing acts of canibalism in dispare for food (for example in Ucraine in 20's counquered by USRR and having some best soil in the world).
Most of the developing countries have faster growing economies because they have nothing else to do but grow- so being backward and having fastest growing economy does not contradict each other. When compared with any European Traditional Power Poland was backward. As for the USSR I would like point out that during the war it managed either to keep up or outright out produce its opponents using only fraction of industry available before the war.

And about all this help from USRR after the war and untill 1989 - buhahahahaha. [Sorry, I know is is childish but I just could not resist.] The best description of how hopeless and backwarding was this "help" form USRR let's look and a matter which is closer to the topic of this forum, namely Germany. Compare gap in economic development between Western and Eastern Germany before they joined each other, compare standards of living, compare income per capita. Do you sincerely think that those Eastern Germans right after the WWII were more stupid, more lazy, less organized or in any other way more backwarded comparing to their Western fellows? I do not think so. THEY WERE JUST RECEIVING "HELP" FROM USRR FOR 50 YEARS. That is what made the difference. The same applies to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia - all those states most likely would do much better if communistic and totalitarian rule was not pressed on them by "liberating" Red Army. As I stated - I base it assumption on comparing level of development in West and East Germany - conclusions are straightforward. The states I mentioned had to subdue to Soviet commands and absurd communistic economy. You speak about cheap reasouces supplied to those states. Well, I can speak about coal, food and machinery transported to USRR from Poland for which we used to receive only a fraction of production costs from our fellow "Slavic" brothers on the East.
Now if there was a bad example. Germany was (and eastern Germy specifically) in fact sucked dry because initially nobody planned the division and the whole thing was done to prevent it from recovering too fast. The fact that managed to achieve one of the highest standards of living in Warsaw pact actually speaks volumes to the point contary to what you just said. Poland and Baltic states are not even in the same league. Btw “Slavic” –meaning not “Slavic”. Anyway like I said you want compare what you delivered to USSR vs what USSR deliver in return in terms of goods and resources – be my guest. Until then sucking dry is just unsupported allegation of yours?

Obviously the link you supplied does not mention "Tygodnik Powszechny". Of course the article we are talking about was published in Polish language on the webside run by Poles. BUT IN ANY WAY IT CANNOT BE TAKEN AS A POLISH OPINON ON THE SUBJECT !

I mentioned "Tygodnik Powszechny" to show how Russian authorities are trying to manipulate media and opinions of people (namely in this situation Russians and Ucrainians). They took article from redundant, completely unknown webside (in addition article was written by a person who for years or even decades stays in Australia, and from this perspective talks about current developmets in Ucraine), and put it together with articles from the most famous newspapers of the world, to make it look as if it was official opinion or at least opinion widely acknowledged in Poland
Right… This is the second time I am asking for you to show that “Russian authorities” tried to manipulate anything. As for your second assumption it takes really wild imagination to see that. INOSMI presents articles from every newspaper and news site without commenting on their relative importance or lack there off so as far I am concerned Tygodnik Powszechny might be just as obscured as the web-site. And nowehere was it implied that article represent any official view.
That would be the same as if I searched net for some outskirt Russian webpage talking some nationalistic or communistic bullshit and try to present it as official believes at Kremlin. Or if I would choose some German, American, French or any other nationalistic and backwarded webpage and try to pretent that it speaks for all Germans, Americans, Frenth or any other.
Only INOSMI did nothing of the kind.
And, sorry to inform you Oleg, you try to manipulate in the very same way - you just picked up some crappy article written by nationalistic lunatic, and try to present it as a general Polish opinion.
Now that just an outright lie –not that I am surprised. That is what I wrote 2 weeks ago on this very thread:
As for Kaluski ... granted: he is probably not the representative of Polish majority but he got published -so at least someone found him interesting...
That’s presenting what Kaluski wrote as an official Polish view?
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Post by oleg »

oh btw TP claimed that INOSMI admitted that the article was sent to them by Russian Foreign Office -despite official INOSMI note that it was not the case and INOSMI siad nothing of the kind. But TP just ignored that.
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