I never knew of this until today...

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
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Jock
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Post by Jock »

Hi Sid,

I can see I'm going to need to stick to the facts when debating with you...I went all patriotic in that post...I believe Scotland to be a powerful and influential nation, where as my brain know's this is pure fantasy :D

(As much as I hate to say it, I truly believe England is a powerful, inflential nation...politically, financially, it's military, sports teams even...england is a powerful nation)

About Darien...Independance isn't sailing off in a boat into the wilderness this time...Fair point, but I think we have evolved somewhat.

I think Scotland would have alot to gain from Independance...It probably will be under the EU as you say, but I dont like to argue along those lines as I believe all of the countries in the UK would be better off out of the EU. I know there is alot of benefits to being in, I just believe we should govern all our own affairs. (The fisheries taking a raping from the EU hasn't helped my view any)

Within the EU, I could only see financial gain...I could be horribly wrong, but I truly believe that we would be a richer nation on our own, but right along side that, alot of changes within our public sector would have to take place. I'm also not 100% sure a fledgling republic could flourish under the EU...there is alot of emphasise in the EU on the people anyway, but in a much more far flung, compromising sense.

Ie - I really dont care where Spanish trawlers fish, That is their problem. But they should not be fishing within our waters or causing the EU to cut back on our quota's, so the Spanish can fufill their quota's.

(Not getting at the Spanish in any big way...they are just one of the offenders in this instance.)

In short, we should sort ourselves out first, and then help others. I dont like how the EU has to try and make, and keep too many people happy - I think someone will always get a worse deal than they would of had they dealt with their own affairs in entirity.

Finally, I'd just like to say I'm throughly enjoying this discussion, I hope you are too, and dont just see me an an obtuse, blowhard patriot :D

Cheers,
Jock
greenhorn
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Post by greenhorn »

Jock,

I've pencilled in my diary the Day of Independence/Devolution for Scotland.

Can you guess what was on the previous day's entry?


The day North Sea oil ran out................. ho ho.


Sid, you're being exceptionally cruel. There is absolutely no need to be cruel to Jock. Torturing him with references to the Darien Expedition.....

Basically a poorly researched idea, that could have worked in the John Company's monopoly was threatenned and the scheme's English backers didn't pull out..... Many historians point to this factor as the first step to Union.....
Half the Scots' capital was lost in this venture...... England paid off these debts on Union..... you can guess who the biggest debtors were...
Parliamentarians, Nobles, Merchants...... I wonder how they voted?
£400,000 to buy country..... quite cheap.....
Just think on tonnage floated off Clyde slipways.... Scots Line Regiments.... Scots Engineers..... Merchants...

"It is the Welsh who were particularly short changed, even more than the Irish. " You can put this down to how these subsidaries came to be swallowed up by hostile mergers......


The only benefits Scotland would derive as a Sovereign Nation (if you can have one in the EU) is a greater portion of EU cash... however this would possibly be less than the subsidies that are sent north over the border from London...

PS please don't mention the North Sea Oil reserves..... as you well know our crafty London based civil servants would quickly draw a sea-boundary start off at Berwick...... ending in the North either at Iceland, but more probably arcing up to the Faroes, swinging round the top of the Shetlands and ending up at Rockall.....
Banzai!
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Jock
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Post by Jock »

Greenhorn,

*finger*

:D

I'll mention the oil reserves while we have them...You never know, you might hand them over, you have been taking our oil for over 30 years now!

Subsidies from London...Psha...I've long held the belief that Scotland generates far more income than it gets back from London.

You wait till we have power...give us 5 years to build an army, and the sacking of York is going to look like a playground scuffle...

And it'll be your head sent in a basket to the queen, Greenhorn!

:wink:

[Edit] I let drink, and braveheart get me carried away there...I'm not sure we actually "sacked" York, per say...But we got close!

FREEEEEDOM!!

:D
Jock
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Jock,

I wouldn't for a moment discount the possibility that Scotland might be better off independent - eventually.

Ireland is, at last, after seventy years as a backwater. But, quite apart from using EU (i.e. German, British and Dutch) money, Ireland did it partly by changing its internal economic attitudes drastically along Thatcherite lines and partly by milking its unwanted inheritance of the English language to attract US and other external investment. Thus even today's prosperous independent Ireland owes something to its wider British heritage. It is even re-exporting free market ideas like budget airlines back to the UK, where Ryanair has its hub.

I would suggest that the current "Socialist Republic of Scotland" (and in this I include Scottish Labour, SNP and LibDems) would have to change its internal culture drastically along similar lines to Ireland if it were to prosper similarly. In other words, I suspect that a prosperous independent Scotland would have to be radically different from the Scotland of today.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I was surprised to learn that the whole of the UK paid for the new Scottish parliament building and that I am as much a stakeholder in its bricks and mortar as any Scot! Do I get my money back at independence? I think it will be about £9 plus interest.
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

P.S. Oil reserves. As I understand it, international waters are divided by extending the direction of existing land frontiers. Thus an independent Scotland would not have found most of the earlier North Sea oilfields in its territorial waters. (The Germans have been similarly squeezed out of the North Sea bonanza because the extension of the existing Dutch and Danish land borders leaves them with only a small segment.)

P.P.S. Yup. I, too, have enjoyed this discussion.

Sid.
greenhorn
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Post by greenhorn »

Would you say Ireland's prosperity has increased because of the
1. Celtic tiger effect.
2. Net recipient of Brussels lolly
3. Influx of cash from British stag & hen do-s in Dublin
or 4. a mix of 1 & 2.......
Banzai!
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Greenhorn,

If your 3. holds good, I would recommend investing in Estonia, as Tallinn is apparently the latest "in" site for British stag- and hen-nights. All courtesy, apparently, of low cost airline seats.........

Cheers,

Sid.
greenhorn
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Post by greenhorn »

Waiting to fly from Leeds Bradford direct....
Banzai!
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Jock
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Post by Jock »

sid guttridge wrote: In other words, I suspect that a prosperous independent Scotland would have to be radically different from the Scotland of today.
I agree with that 110% Sid...The question is, can we change that much? Under labour, I doubt it...Under the SNP, mabye...But a Socialist/SNP coalition...Now that could do the trick, and isn't too far beyond the realms of possiblility. Glad you brought up Ireland, as, IMO, that's the model we should be following.

You can have your money back when we find someone to blame for the fiasco...Donald Dewar is very popular scapegoat atm, as he cant really argure his defence. Also, dont let Scottish labour hear that it only cost nine pounds per person to build...they would milk the hell out of that one...

Greenhorn - equal mix of all three, and sentimental yanks. Read McCarthy's Bar, by the sadly recently deceased Pete McCarthy. It gives you a real insight into todays modern, rich Ireland. Also a damn funny, good read.

Investing in Estonia? To think 10 years ago, you would have been laughed out of the gentlemans club for suggesting that...My hot tip is Poland, in the longer term.

8)

Cheers,
Jock
Berndkarlotto
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Re:

Post by Berndkarlotto »

Patrick wrote:Luttow fought in German East Africa, not Southwest Africa.
Patrick some corrections, I presume you are referring to Lettow (Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck to be exact) he indeed was fighting in German Southwestafrica during the Nama-uprising where he got wounded.
Famous however he became during WW1 in Eastafrica.
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