War Memorial depicting soldier in German uniform removed.

[eestlane1]

In August this year, a memorial was erected in Lihula, Estonia in memory of all those soldiers who fell defending their country from the Red Army.

Background - In 1939 many Estonians went to join the Finns who were repelling an unprovoked invasion by Soviet forces. In 1940 the Red Army invaded Estonia following the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact. Following mass arrests, executions and deportations, many men fled into the forests and formed an active resistance known as the 'Metsavennad' (the "Forest Brotherhood"). They were mainly armed with hunting rifles and fought a partisan campaign against the Red Army.

Following the German invasion of the Russian sector of Poland, the Russians forcibly conscripted several thousand Estonian men into the Red Army. Fortunately the majority managed to escape - some with weapons - and joined the partisans. The Russians had also formed 'Destruction Battallions' whose job it was to follow a scorched earth policy. The partisans not only managed to limit the effect of these battallions but had cleared over two thirds of the country of the Red Army before the Germans arrived and helped to finish off the job.

Some of the partisans were absorbed into the 'Viking Brigade' whilst others were given training and became part of the Wermacht. Most noteable amongst them were the troops commanded by Rebane (*Knights Cross with gold oak leaves) whose men became known to the local High Command as the 'mobile fortress'.

The Estonian troops were later formed into the Estonian SS Division and played the major role in the battles of Narva and Sinimae. Together with the Norwegian and Danish Divisions, they accounted for more Communist
casualties than the rest of the Eastern Front put together. Following those battles, General Steiner commented that, had he had an army of these 'freiwillge', he could have taken the whole of Russia!!!

The fact that these men - my father amongst them - fought for their country and freedom against Soviet oppression in German uniform should not diminish their sacrifice. They understood what it took the 'West' many years to understand.

Whilst every town in Estonia, now supposedly free, exihbits a memorial to the dead of the occupying Communist forces,(one tenth of the population was eradicated following Communist domination) there is not a single memorial to those who fell fighting for their country and freedom.

That the Estonians had to fight for their country in German uniform is a matter of fact and circumstance. That President Putin's government (in view of his KGB background) should object to the memorial is politically understandable. That the White House and President Bush should excert pressure for the removal of the memorial is extremely sad!

My father commented that 'those of us who know do not need a memorial to be reminded'.

I would argue that those who follow, need to understand!

I would ask those who support the memory of all that died in the fight against Communism,the dominance of Moscow and the evil that ensued, let their feelings be known to the Estonian President at [email protected] .

I am justly proud of my father's fight against Communism from his participation as a teenager to it's defeat under President Reagan. A memorial to them should not be sacrificed to political expediancy!

Even in these uncertain times, freedom of thought and action must remain paramount! :oops:


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:oops: :evil: [/img]

[Brian67]

That President Putin's government (in view of his KGB background) should object to the memorial is politically understandable. That the White House and President Bush should excert pressure for the removal of the memorial is extremely sad!

I've heard about the memorial and I understand the intention of the estonian people. But Germany lost the war (also against the USA) and so it is also for Bush hard to understand, that the soldiers at the monument had German uniforms. Perhaps you can build a memorial with partisans (without uniforms)??

[CEE]

.... George Bush even knows where Estonia is ?

Eric

[eestlane1]

Hi Brian 67,

If my history is right, didn't the USA expend thousands of millions of dollars and the lives of thousands of soldiers fighting Communism? I also recollect that Bush, a couple of nights ago in his 'debate' against Kerry, extolled the virtues of freedom and democracy. When the Estonians began their fight against Communism they were free and democratic. After almost 50 years of Communist domination they are again supposed to be free and democratic. During that time more than 10% of the population was deported and anihilated. The last freedom fighter was not captured by the soviets until 1976.

How does one depict a partisan? As a farmer, a teacher, a fisherman, blacksmith, taxi-driver, politician.....? The fact is that the vast majority who died defending their country did so wearing an SS uniform. That does not mean that they were supporters of Hitler. Its just that there happened to be nobody else fighting Russia. Bear in mind that the Estonians (like the Finns) were fighting the Russians long before the 'Allies' became involved. Our country had been invaded!!!

Under those circumstances if you think that we should be apologetic for the fact that we happened to wear German uniform you are greatly mistaken. That Germany lost the war in no way diminishes the fact that so many Estonians fought with incredible bravery against insuperable odds in order to prevent the decimation of their population and all the evils which Stalin could perpetrate.

If Bush really believes in democracy, he should allow the people of a free and democratic state to erect a memorial as they wish. To do otherwise smacks to me of a degree of dictatorship.

The idea of 'Allies' good, 'Axis' bad reflects a naive Hollywood view of the war. I can in no way defend Hitler's ethos and actions nor wish to do so. But I will defend the actions of the Estonian, Norwegian, Danish, Dutch (and German) troops who defended the country of my forefathers against Stalin's unprovoked aggression. WE had already experienced the brutality, murder and rape for which the Red Army was noted! As for the victory of democracy, ask the people of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Chzekoslovakia, Romania, Albania, Georgia, Chechnya, East Germany..... the list goes on!!!

I note that you live in Switzerland. A beautiful country, but when did they last have to defend their democracy with the blood of their citizens?

Eestlane1

[eestlane1]

Bush is probably totally unaware thar Estonia (rightly or wrongly) has not only contributed troops to the Iraq theatre but has also sacrificed lives there. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Eestlane1

[101stDoc]

And how do you figure that Estlane?

Please keep modern politics off this board. Things are heated enough IRL at the moment that we do not need bantering on here.

Doc

[Brian67]

Hi eestlane1
Perhaps you nderstood me in the wrong way. I (for my own) have now problems with the memorial for the Estonian fighters. I really understand your point of view and I think a country should decide for itself, what memorials it wants. The pressure of Russia and the USA is not okay in my eyes.

Hi Brian 67,
If my history is right, didn't the USA expend thousands of millions of dollars and the lives of thousands of soldiers fighting Communism?

Yes, and I think it's not logical, that the Allies only fighted against Hitler and not also against Stalin.

I also recollect that Bush, a couple of nights ago in his 'debate' against Kerry, extolled the virtues of freedom and democracy.

To understand, what Bush really thinks about democracy, just read "Stupid white man" from Michael Moore

How does one depict a partisan? As a farmer, a teacher, a fisherman, blacksmith, taxi-driver, politician.....?

Was just an idea to get a memorial without getting problems with Russia and the United States.

The idea of 'Allies' good, 'Axis' bad reflects a naive Hollywood view of the war.

Yes, but many people share the "naive Hollywood view".

As for the victory of democracy, ask the people of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Chzekoslovakia, Romania, Albania, Georgia, Chechnya, East Germany..... the list goes on!!!

I know about the situation and has been in Hungary, Slovakia, Romania and former East Germany so far.

I note that you live in Switzerland. A beautiful country, but when did they last have to defend their democracy with the blood of their citizens?

I live in Switzerland, that's right (last war there was 1847 and it was a civil war), but I'm German and both of my grandfathers died in WW2.
Bye Brian

[eestlane1]

To 101st doc,

As far as my father and the memory of his fallen compatriots are concerned, this is not a 'modern' matter but one of national identity and honour for the dead. It is not a matter of politics, but of the truth. I have made no comment about the participation of Estonian troops in Iraq and will not be drawn to do so, as that is a 'Modern' concern. The fact that so many people died in the battles against Communism is irrrefutable. That the USA should have spent so many lives is admirable. Do you doubt your inheritance?

Brian, I have no intelligence as to how your grandfathers died.l I can only suggest that they did so following their own consciences. If a man gives his life for what he believes to be right, and for the protection of his family, one can ask no more. History will judge but only when the full facts are known. If uniforms rather than faith are the criteria, I can only despair.

T. Toomsalu

[Brian67]

I can only suggest that they did so following their own consciences. If a man gives his life for what he believes to be right, and for the protection of his family, one can ask no more.

I know about their consciences, because my grandmothers told me. The one (http://www.3ss.totenkopf.de.vu) was a convinved national socialist, the other (http://www.panzergrenadierregiment63.de.vu) didn't like Hitler at all and hated the war.

[Qvist]

Hi eestlane

Just one quibble, and one question (which is not intended as a rethorical one).

The Estonian troops were later formed into the Estonian SS Division and played the major role in the battles of Narva and Sinimae. Together with the Norwegian and Danish Divisions, they accounted for more Communist
casualties than the rest of the Eastern Front put together.

There were no "Danish and Norwegian divisions", just one - 11.SS-PzGr.D. "Nordland", consisting of Germans and Volksdeutsche from Romania in addition to Danish and Norwegian volunteers. And the last point is of course free fantasy.

The question: Understandable though the attitude to the Soviets were, are you sure you would have been better off with a Soviet defeat? I've just been reading the chapters on German occupation policy and plans in the MgFA's "Germany and the Second world War", and the intention was for the Estonians to be germanized within 20 years. The intention for the other Baltic states within the same timeframe was to deport ALL the Latvians East, and about half the Lithuanians.

cheers

[Michate]

I've just been reading the chapters on German occupation policy and plans in the MgFA's "Germany and the Second world War", and the intention was for the Estonians to be germanized within 20 years. The intention for the other Baltic states within the same timeframe was to deport ALL the Latvians East, and about half the Lithuanians.

I have read the same work and can confirm this.

Additionally one should not forget the Germans have to share responsibility for the Soviet occupation starting in 1939/40, for they essentially handed over the Baltic states to the Soviet Union with the Ribbentropp-Molotov treaty and without this treaty (and the start of the war between Germany, France and Britain) the Soviets probably would not have dared to occupy these states.

The German behaviour towards the Finns during the Winter War fits the same pattern, for although there were sympathies for the Finns, Hitler did not allow any help, only after the ttack on the Soviet Union was planned did this change.

As to the Baltic people Quist has mentioned their probable fate after a german victory, although plans of different authorities did differ.

Only after Barbarossa failed and during the course of the war the situation did become ever worse for the Germans did they start to put up Baltic units, largely as an additional manpower source.

This is of course not meant to lower any sacrifices the Baltic peoples have made or suffered against fighting against Soviet occupation and all its results.

Just to show these peoples were betrayed by both Soviets and Germans (and perhaps one could also include behaviour of the Western powers after the war).

[Arne]

At this point of the discussion I would like to remind the interrested reader on the subliminal anti-baltic resentiments which where caused by the Latvian/Estoninan treatment of the German volunteers which helped the to gain independance in 1918/19.

The volunteers where offered to stay and settle on ground provided by the baltic-german squires. They recived a entitlement for that land signed by the lativan government and the squires.
Disstrusting the Latvians, the intelligenz officer of the German volunteer forces set up a puppet government at Libau. Unfortunatly their leader (a Pastor Nedra if I recall it right) was kidnapped after a few days and never showed up again. Understandably the latvian Ulmanis was quite pissed and asked the germans to leave (naturally after the liberation of Riga).
The German soldiers did not want to leave at all because of the land entitlements they all carried in their pockets. So the Latvians asked the entante for help. The German government was asked to return the forces. But as the forces where acting under a volunteer status in behalve of the German-baltic squires, there was no big pressure that could be generated from this direction.

Later in 1919 a coalition of Latvian / Eastonian forces removed the remnants of the German forces (which had become white russian volunteers by then under pressure of the emissarys of the Entante) from the baltics in a series of fightings which lead to the defeat of the volunteer forces at the battle of Cesis (Wenden). The last germans where driven out of latvia into East-Prussia in late 1919.

Following these events the returned volunteers started an avalache of publications complaining bitterly about the "deception". (Albert Leo Schlageters entitlement paper was shown in several books after his dead). These wave of publications was ongoing until the middle of the 1930s.
Even a childrens-book about the liberation of Riga was published by Franz-Schneider-Verlag (still today on of the biggest german publishers for children books). If you check out German history schoolbooks from the 1920s-1930s you will find these events in most of them.
If you consider the popular oppinion build by the volunteers during the interwar period it is clearly understandable that Hitler gave a damn about the baltic states when Stalin asked for them.

During the next war the situation was changed to behalve of the Latvians/Estonians by the squires (returned to reich in the meantime) and other germans of baltic birth. Many of them, highly educated and and with language skills in russian, ended up in intelligence and used their influence to gain the Latvians/Estonians as allies in the struggle against comunism.
Consider the deep distrust by the whole generation of germans now in charge of affairs, they did quite well.

That only as a information for getting into the sentiments of German/Baltic relations before the war.

[101stDoc]

Apparently you misunderstood what I meant. By modern politics in Mean the remarks about Iraq and Bush. This' a WW2 board. The rest of it was fine.

Doc

[eestlane1]

to Qvist

Until perestroika, Russian war casualty statistics were indeed pure fantasy dependant upon what the Soviet government wished to portray. However, in 1993, a committee of the Russian Army published a statistical account of Russian losses in WWII. It was edited by Krivosheev and published in Moscow. I have tracked down and have a copy. It was researched and published during that pre-Putin period when access to records was more free and since when access to the archives has been closed.

Any Western assessments were dependant upon an amalgam of both Russian and German assessments that were both heavily influenced by political expediency. It is probably the closest that we can come to true figures.

AS to fantasy, when you have read it, please come back to me.

Eestlane 1

[eestlane1]

Ref Arne

Your succinct analysis of the attitudes of the Baltic people to the Germans is quite correct. We had no love for them and the mutual distrust is reflected by the refusal of the German High Command to award Iron Crosses to Baltic soldiers but to issue certificates instead. Following protests by the Estonian troops, supported by General Augsberger, this attitude to the 'lesser races' was eventually overturned.

The soldiers of the Baltic States had no knowledge of Hitler's future plans. All that they could judge by was their knowledge - better than most- of Stalin's past atrocities in Russia and it's republics, and direct experience of Soviet rule. Under such circumstances they were willing to accept the help of anybody who was prepared to do so.

Following the invasion of Finland by Soviet troops, Churchill made a magnificent speech in support of the valiant struggle of such a small country against an evil aggressor. Had the UK (or US) been in a position to afford military support (which they were not), most of the Estonians who died might well have done so in British uniform rather than German. That's how circumstances panned out.

In 1994 a book by Russian historian Igor Bunitsh was published by Vita-Oblik in St. Petersburg. It was titled Apparatze Graza (Operation Thunder).

His proposition is that, as there was mutual distrust between Stalin and Hitler, Stalin was preparing a pre-emptive strike (Operation Thunder)against the Germans. He supports this by detailing the massive stock-piling of weapons and build-up of troops by the Russians in Southern Lithuania and Poland. His theory is that Hitler's intelligence became aware of the situation and that this forced the Germans to attack whilst not fully prepared yet still in better circumstances than the Red Army. Anybody else read it?