Wellcome me. I have recently discovered a huge interest in WWII.
So, like the topics says.
How could Germany win the war?
If they never attacked the soviets, would the soviet attack them?
How was the German economy? Was it possible to sustain a large military for a longer period?
How could they avoid dragging in the Americans? Because I am pretty sure the nazis could have handled the Britts alone.
My theory is:
Skip Poland at first. Invade France 1st of September 1939 instead. Take France, and prepare an invasion of the UK the following summer. Isolate the Island totally so american supplies don't arrive. Then invade. After that, Hitler should be home free.
What do you guys think?
How could Germany win the war?
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Tom Houlihan
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PanzerLeader
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Poland was the main objective, Hitler thought that France and the UK would back down over Danzig.
Hitler was a big fan of the UK and it's empire and saw them as a natural ally.
After the fall of France Hitler made peace overtures to the UK, even saying that Germany would leave France for peace. It was the UK then that wanted war because of the peace rejections.
War with the USSR was inevitable, if Hitler didn't attack first then the USSR would gain the 1st strike advantage. Barbarossa could have been sucessful had Hitler been able to negotiate peace with the UK and not made the mistake of making war with the USA.
Hitler was a big fan of the UK and it's empire and saw them as a natural ally.
After the fall of France Hitler made peace overtures to the UK, even saying that Germany would leave France for peace. It was the UK then that wanted war because of the peace rejections.
War with the USSR was inevitable, if Hitler didn't attack first then the USSR would gain the 1st strike advantage. Barbarossa could have been sucessful had Hitler been able to negotiate peace with the UK and not made the mistake of making war with the USA.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Guys,
I think Tom has a point. Hitler's intuition got Germany a long way. Ideally he would have been killed or otherwise removed before Stalingrad and the Allied unconditional surrender demand of early 1943. Better still, before the extermination camps started work in early 1942. Perhaps best in about October 1941 when the maximum concessions could be wrung out of a nervous Stalin, before the first rebuffs at Rostov and Moscow or the USA got involved. After that a heavy-weight Mediterranean strategy would probably soon have brought a weak and isolated UK to the peace table in 1942.
Cheers,
Sid.
I think Tom has a point. Hitler's intuition got Germany a long way. Ideally he would have been killed or otherwise removed before Stalingrad and the Allied unconditional surrender demand of early 1943. Better still, before the extermination camps started work in early 1942. Perhaps best in about October 1941 when the maximum concessions could be wrung out of a nervous Stalin, before the first rebuffs at Rostov and Moscow or the USA got involved. After that a heavy-weight Mediterranean strategy would probably soon have brought a weak and isolated UK to the peace table in 1942.
Cheers,
Sid.
Well, thinking back on any history of what could have happened is easy. but, whether or not it would have come about is difficult.
Nazi Germany never prepared for a long war, only for a short blitzkrieg campaign. Poland and France were won this way. Britain, the Soviet Union and the U.S. need a different long term strategy. There is no military advantage for Germany to invade & occupy The U.K. What use would an occupied U.K. be to Germany? Regarding the U.K. It would have been better for Germany to start Sept 1, '39 by launching a combined air-sea-u-boat campaign against British shipping and sea-ports. Had Germany built up her u-boat fleet and long range air fleet to an acceptable level (ie: 300 u-boats, 300 4-engined bombers) this could have been achieved and Britain would therefore not be of any viable threat to German interests. In fact a protracted and effective stranglution of the U.K. economy would probably affect to some kind of popular uprising against Churchill's government and result in a diplomatic settlement to end the war.
Now, the Soviet union is very different. It is a problem of time, space and strategy. Had Germany used a better strategy than hitting all 3 army group fronts with more or less equal forces thus blunting the effect of a deeper penetration, then they could have achieved better results. It would have been more effective to keep all 4 panzer groups together and surround Moscow with one large panzer army and then swing southeast to Stalingrad to surround the Ukraine. Had the Ukraine been surrounded, that land would definitely revolt against their Soviet overlords. Moreover, had they used a long range supply force ie: an air transport fleet to bring up supplies by air to the far flung panzers units, they could have effected a longer thrust in faster time to reach ie: Moscow and beyond.
The U.S. simply could not be defeated. Perhaps if Germany utilized a better technology and adopted a long term war of attrition by undersea, surface fleet and air against American shipping then the U.S. might have agreed to a diplomatic settlement if the cost of waging war was too expensive for them.
In all the war could have been won by Germany by '42.
Nazi Germany never prepared for a long war, only for a short blitzkrieg campaign. Poland and France were won this way. Britain, the Soviet Union and the U.S. need a different long term strategy. There is no military advantage for Germany to invade & occupy The U.K. What use would an occupied U.K. be to Germany? Regarding the U.K. It would have been better for Germany to start Sept 1, '39 by launching a combined air-sea-u-boat campaign against British shipping and sea-ports. Had Germany built up her u-boat fleet and long range air fleet to an acceptable level (ie: 300 u-boats, 300 4-engined bombers) this could have been achieved and Britain would therefore not be of any viable threat to German interests. In fact a protracted and effective stranglution of the U.K. economy would probably affect to some kind of popular uprising against Churchill's government and result in a diplomatic settlement to end the war.
Now, the Soviet union is very different. It is a problem of time, space and strategy. Had Germany used a better strategy than hitting all 3 army group fronts with more or less equal forces thus blunting the effect of a deeper penetration, then they could have achieved better results. It would have been more effective to keep all 4 panzer groups together and surround Moscow with one large panzer army and then swing southeast to Stalingrad to surround the Ukraine. Had the Ukraine been surrounded, that land would definitely revolt against their Soviet overlords. Moreover, had they used a long range supply force ie: an air transport fleet to bring up supplies by air to the far flung panzers units, they could have effected a longer thrust in faster time to reach ie: Moscow and beyond.
The U.S. simply could not be defeated. Perhaps if Germany utilized a better technology and adopted a long term war of attrition by undersea, surface fleet and air against American shipping then the U.S. might have agreed to a diplomatic settlement if the cost of waging war was too expensive for them.
In all the war could have been won by Germany by '42.
Die Wurde des Menschen ist unantastbar
Certainly one of Hitler's dummer moves.Reb, I do not think that you are entirely right whith you suggestion. Actually Hitler did everything in his power to keep the US out of th war (he had been around in WWI and new what could happen). But the USA supported Great Britain, which simply did not agree to Hitler peace proposals. Also, they started to support the Sovietunion economically.
Still, American ships were strictly off limits to the German U-Boats. But then the American Navy started to protect the convoys in the western half of the Atlantic, attacking German subs repeatedly. That created a nasty situation: Hitler's orders even prohibited acts of self-defense.
So, in the end of 1941, an American entry into the war on behalf of Britain seemed more and more probable...and with the Japanese attack on Pearll Harbor almost certain. Hitler declared war on the USA then..that way the Submarine could start to fight the convoys more thoroughly, and he hoped that the German-Japanese bond would be strenghtened.
Hitler of course believed at this time, that the Sovietunion was as good as beaten...If one follows this assumption his decision to declare war on the USA was strategically not entirely stupid.
Since the US would have most probably declared war on Germany in 1942 anyway, he had nothing to loose, only something to gain from taking the initiative.
Still, American ships were strictly off limits to the German U-Boats. But then the American Navy started to protect the convoys in the western half of the Atlantic, attacking German subs repeatedly. That created a nasty situation: Hitler's orders even prohibited acts of self-defense.
So, in the end of 1941, an American entry into the war on behalf of Britain seemed more and more probable...and with the Japanese attack on Pearll Harbor almost certain. Hitler declared war on the USA then..that way the Submarine could start to fight the convoys more thoroughly, and he hoped that the German-Japanese bond would be strenghtened.
Hitler of course believed at this time, that the Sovietunion was as good as beaten...If one follows this assumption his decision to declare war on the USA was strategically not entirely stupid.
Since the US would have most probably declared war on Germany in 1942 anyway, he had nothing to loose, only something to gain from taking the initiative.
"Tell my mother I died for my country. I did what I thought was best."
John Wilkes Booth
April 12, 1865
John Wilkes Booth
April 12, 1865
Kitsune
I agree in part. Our bloody president Roosevelt was all fired up to fight but many to most Americans were not. We'd learned a hard lesson in WWI. He did everything he could to get us motivated and failed so his last recourse was to put Americans in harm's way doing convoy duty.
Ultimately I think he might have had his way but if Germany had been wise they'd have waited - after all with Pearl Harbor most Americans would have been focused on Japan and Roosevelt would have had a much harder time pushing for sending military aid to Britain and Russia when we were ourselves at war.
The Japanese were really smart to attack England since that moved the US closer to England and farther from Germany. Of course 'really smart' turned out to be "really dumb" in the long run.
As to 'taking the initiative' I don't think that bought Germany a darn thing - it wasn't like they could hit us fast and hard or anything. Outside of U-Boats Hitler wasn't able to hit us at all until we came to him.
cheers
Reb
I agree in part. Our bloody president Roosevelt was all fired up to fight but many to most Americans were not. We'd learned a hard lesson in WWI. He did everything he could to get us motivated and failed so his last recourse was to put Americans in harm's way doing convoy duty.
Ultimately I think he might have had his way but if Germany had been wise they'd have waited - after all with Pearl Harbor most Americans would have been focused on Japan and Roosevelt would have had a much harder time pushing for sending military aid to Britain and Russia when we were ourselves at war.
The Japanese were really smart to attack England since that moved the US closer to England and farther from Germany. Of course 'really smart' turned out to be "really dumb" in the long run.
As to 'taking the initiative' I don't think that bought Germany a darn thing - it wasn't like they could hit us fast and hard or anything. Outside of U-Boats Hitler wasn't able to hit us at all until we came to him.
cheers
Reb
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sid guttridge
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M.Wittmann
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Hmm IMO
Take Poland and make a pact with the other devil...
Fall Gelb like it went.
Priority on U-boats and tanks (PzKpfw IV) instead of more battleships
Concentrate on the UK with the Luftwaffe and U-boat packs.
Have a short leach on Mussolini's adventures in the Balkans
Forbidding Italy to go to Africa for now
Pacts with Hungary, Romania, Bulgary to secure enough oilreserves.
Invade and conquer the UK and Ireland.
Research and produce PzKpfw V and VI, Me-262's, V-weapons, etc.
Make sure that no one hesitate to stop AH when he tries to frustrate the OKH/OKW.
Take Poland and make a pact with the other devil...
Fall Gelb like it went.
Priority on U-boats and tanks (PzKpfw IV) instead of more battleships
Concentrate on the UK with the Luftwaffe and U-boat packs.
Have a short leach on Mussolini's adventures in the Balkans
Forbidding Italy to go to Africa for now
Pacts with Hungary, Romania, Bulgary to secure enough oilreserves.
Invade and conquer the UK and Ireland.
Research and produce PzKpfw V and VI, Me-262's, V-weapons, etc.
Make sure that no one hesitate to stop AH when he tries to frustrate the OKH/OKW.
"Klagt nicht, kämpft!"
Wanted:
Info about 5.SS-Pz(Gren)Div 'Wiking' and the dutch Waffen-SS volunteers.
Wanted:
Info about 5.SS-Pz(Gren)Div 'Wiking' and the dutch Waffen-SS volunteers.
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Firebomb Fritz
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You have to remember that the panzer V and VI were designed out of nessecity (kinda) to fight the T34 and the other heavily armoured Russian tanks.
IMO
Poland
the fall
France
persue the African campaign to drain resources from the British home islands and the other commonwealth nations as well as supressing the Balkans. Closing off a supply route for goods and comminication with India by capturing the Suez.
By taking Egypt most military force in North Africa should be defeated and the run through Palestine and Syria should be easy to secure those Oil fields and hopefully Turkey would join the War and follow suit in an invasion of Russia to concide with a more deliberate attack on Russia from the Caucuses and across the Greater Germany frontier with Russia in 1943 allowing for the capture of those Oil fields and hopefully creating a vast envelope to be suppressed after the fall of Moscow.
The time table may be a little off and it may be fantasy but if Turkey joined the Axis there would be a open road between the oil fields of the Middle East and Germany allowing for less fear over the control of Oil reserves.
my 2 cents
IMO
Poland
the fall
France
persue the African campaign to drain resources from the British home islands and the other commonwealth nations as well as supressing the Balkans. Closing off a supply route for goods and comminication with India by capturing the Suez.
By taking Egypt most military force in North Africa should be defeated and the run through Palestine and Syria should be easy to secure those Oil fields and hopefully Turkey would join the War and follow suit in an invasion of Russia to concide with a more deliberate attack on Russia from the Caucuses and across the Greater Germany frontier with Russia in 1943 allowing for the capture of those Oil fields and hopefully creating a vast envelope to be suppressed after the fall of Moscow.
The time table may be a little off and it may be fantasy but if Turkey joined the Axis there would be a open road between the oil fields of the Middle East and Germany allowing for less fear over the control of Oil reserves.
my 2 cents
When life gives you lemons, clone those lemons, and make super lemons.
The only way that Germany could have won would have been to take on its enemies one at a time. The economic disparity between Germany and the Allies was simply too great.
A simple way of seeing this is comparing the populations of the combatants: Germany was 80 million, the Western Allies and the Soviet Union combined was something like 600 million. It's simple maths.
A simple way of seeing this is comparing the populations of the combatants: Germany was 80 million, the Western Allies and the Soviet Union combined was something like 600 million. It's simple maths.
The wisest man knows the limits of his own wisdom
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Richard Hedlund
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I have my theory of how Germany could have won the war. During the Battle of Britain I can not see why the Germans would have to terror bomb the British cities. I know it was because the RAF accidentaly bombed Berlin, but still.
If the Germans had made a mass attack with only fighters, taking all fighter planes they could muster, wipe out all RAF fighters in the sky and destroy the ones on the airfields with cannon fire. The RAf would be in such choc that they would be out of operation for a day or two. This would be if the 109s efficiently wiped out as many RAF fighters as possible.
Without being tied to protect the bombers, doing it my way would give the 109s much more freedom in what target to attack and for how long to follow it. As it was in reality, chases had to be abandoned because the 109 was too far away from the bombers.
Well, do it my way, and Fighter Command would be out of operation for one day or two. Reserves from nothern England would not arrive in only one day. In the afternoon send all bombers to attack the Royal Navy ships in range of the Channel. The next day, still under an gigantic umbrella of 109s and Stukas, send over the Wehrmacht.
With England out of the way, since they had virtually no chance of repelling a German attack in August 1940, Hitler would have his back free. Much fewer units would have to be tied up in France. The Luftwaffe could re-enforce and send its entire strenght to Russia. Maybe that would have been enough to make a victorious Blitzkriege attack into Russia.
Another thing, I would have sent forces to cut of the Volga in the first assault. Stopping Russia oil supplies from the south, this would have made their thousands of tanks useless.
That's what I would have done
If the Germans had made a mass attack with only fighters, taking all fighter planes they could muster, wipe out all RAF fighters in the sky and destroy the ones on the airfields with cannon fire. The RAf would be in such choc that they would be out of operation for a day or two. This would be if the 109s efficiently wiped out as many RAF fighters as possible.
Without being tied to protect the bombers, doing it my way would give the 109s much more freedom in what target to attack and for how long to follow it. As it was in reality, chases had to be abandoned because the 109 was too far away from the bombers.
Well, do it my way, and Fighter Command would be out of operation for one day or two. Reserves from nothern England would not arrive in only one day. In the afternoon send all bombers to attack the Royal Navy ships in range of the Channel. The next day, still under an gigantic umbrella of 109s and Stukas, send over the Wehrmacht.
With England out of the way, since they had virtually no chance of repelling a German attack in August 1940, Hitler would have his back free. Much fewer units would have to be tied up in France. The Luftwaffe could re-enforce and send its entire strenght to Russia. Maybe that would have been enough to make a victorious Blitzkriege attack into Russia.
Another thing, I would have sent forces to cut of the Volga in the first assault. Stopping Russia oil supplies from the south, this would have made their thousands of tanks useless.
That's what I would have done
How could Germany win the war?
Was it possible for Germany to win the war? Not only was it possible, but probable until the invasion of Russia. Even after Hitler invaded many experts agree that had he invaded sooner, at the earliest onset of suitable weather; and been better prepared for a protracted fight instead of a quick victory, the Soviet Union may have collapsed. Hitler further compounded these mistakes by dividing his forces during the push to Moscow. I often wonder, had he launched an airborne invasion of the Kremlin to capture or kill Stalin, who had a near nervous breakdown upon learning of the invasion, would this have succeded?