How could Germany win the war?

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender »

1871, I would really like to know (please with quotes from me) how you come to following conclusions about me:
.....to their communist beliefs....
....the haters of the Wehrmacht....
As you accuse me of these things I am sure you can provide lots of quotes where I spread my communist believes or say that I hate the Wehrmacht.
And by the way... not we make people get banned from the forum. People like you are always banning "themselves" by the nonsense they post.

\Christoph
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2nd SS Panzer Das Reich
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Post by 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich »

Christoph Awender wrote:
Althoug I basically agree with you Richard for me it is not possible to ignore such individuals like 2ndSSPanzer. Why should I ignore him... I also definately wouldn`t ignore him in real life when I would meet him.
Saying that he "does not support the Nazi ideals" and then post a list which includes at least two of the most notorious Nazis is simply ridiculous and shows how little he uses his brain before posting.
You may have think it is better to ignore him but I will always oppose people with such views anytime, everywhere.

\Christoph
I don't support Nazi ideas, I admire Otto Skorzeny and Josef "Sepp" Dietrich. It's like you can love Jesus but that alone does not make you a Christian.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi 2SSDR,

I think you will find that Christians believe precisely that: If you truly love Jesus you are a Christian.

If you say you admire Skorzeny without qualification then people are entitled to presume that you admire all he stood for, including his politics.

I think the hero-worship of Skorzeny is greatly over done, as I have explained elsewhere, and Sepp Dietrich was largely carried by army-trained staff officers who had professional skills he largely lacked. I therefore think that both are less than entirely admirable, even as soldiers.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by Achilles »

You would do well to reconsider your position.
Well, that surely sounds like a threat to me Mc1871. I'm in your homeland every so often...I'll be sure to avoid any little runts like yourself.
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Post by 1500rpm »

with reguards to various statements about the enormous waste of manpower and resources in the Holocaust

well yes, the Holocaust was senseless and horrible and wasteful on every level imaginable, but how did Hitler unite and focus Germany? Appealling to xenophobic biggoted nationalism. Anti-semetism was as vital to the German war effort as oil and steel, to harness the hatred of the German people.

And yes, the German people. Germans were, and probably still are anti-semites. They're Europeans. Europeans are anti-semites. Are all Europeans anti-semites? Of course not. But the feeling of anti-semetism is/was/always-will-be predominate in Europe. It's a fact of European society. Anyone claiming Europeans aren't anti-semetic needs to a)read the newspaper b)go to Europe.

But that's besides the point. Germany needed a group to xenophobically attack to recover from the crushing defeat and economic ruin of WWI. Jews were this group. Hitlers success would not have been possible without Jews and anti-semetism.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi 1500rpm,

You are absolutely right that Nazism needed a scapegoat group such as the Jews in order to flourish.

However, to extend that to the Germany and Germans of today as a whole is to do an injustice. No country has more honestly faced the fact of the anti-Semitism in its past. Jews have voted with their feet. The Jewish population of Germany has trippled to 100,000 since 1990. Indeed, they, amongst others groups, are complaining about the proposed tightening of German immigration laws.

The idea that anti-Semitism predominates in the rest of Europe is ludicrous. It certainly exists widely, but it is not a central political theme across most of the continent. Anti-Semtism, real or threatened, is understandably a central issue in the lives of Jews, but it is not a significant concern amongst the vast majority of non-Jews, who are probably unaware if they know any Jews, such is the secularisation of both Jews and non-Jews in many European societies. Britain's Jewish population is in decline due to assimilation. Even the Chief Rabbi can't identify half his flock.

Nor is it as if anti-Semitism is absent in non-European societies. The USA and the Old Commonwealth countries are inheritors of the same Judaeo-Christian traditions as Europe. The pogrom against the Jews of York in medieaval England is as much a part of WASP American, Canadian and Australian historical tradition as it is of the UK. (That part being minuscule in all cases).

Any group that chooses to define itself exclusively is by definition excluding others. This is as much true of Diaspora Judaism as it is of, say, German Nationalism.

In the Judaeo-Christian world at the moment only one country operates an entirely exclusive immigration system. Israel. Anti-Semitism (which strictly speaking should mean prejudice against most Middle Eastern peoples, not just Jews) is just one type of racism, and racism is the preserve of the whole of humanity.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by Dexx »

1500rpm wrote: And yes, the German people. Germans were, and probably still are anti-semites. They're Europeans. Europeans are anti-semites. Are all Europeans anti-semites? Of course not. But the feeling of anti-semetism is/was/always-will-be predominate in Europe. It's a fact of European society. Anyone claiming Europeans aren't anti-semetic needs to a)read the newspaper b)go to Europe.

Sorry for saying that: What a load of BS (a predominate anti-semite Europe and in particular Germany)

Do you live here? Do you have first hand knowledge about that? This a very big insult to every one who is as open-minded/democratic as I am (German) or others in Europe. I can only speak for me and my friends: We don't take care of the origin or the fate of someone. If he/she is nice, happy and kind he/she is wellcome. If we were predominantly anti-semitic, why did I go to a party of a jewish friend to party with him and other friends on New years Eve? Tell me!

You heart seems to be full of irratinal and morbid hate and you want to infect or poison others with it. Please, go away :!: :(
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Post by Ironman »

Back to how the Germans win the war. Had Kirk and Spock allowed Joan Collins to live instead of die in that car accident, Germany would have completed all their "Hard Water" experiments and developed the A-bomb first! Ouch!!! Dr. Strangelove, Baby!

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Re: How could Germany win the war?

Post by august »

germany had the war won until hitler "temporarily" postponed the invasion of england. by failing to press home luftwaffe attacks on the raf and aircraft manufacturing sites, the raf was given a desperately needed breather in order to re-group and stave off german domination of the skies over england thus paving the way for what was sure to be the successful invasion of england. hitler again was the culprit, being angered by an accidental bombing of a civilian sector of berlin, he instructed goring to have london and other british cities destroyed by air bombardment. hitler also reputedly believed this would break british morale, as we now know, it had the opposite effect. 8)
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Re: How could Germany win the war?

Post by phylo_roadking »

germany had the war won until hitler "temporarily" postponed the invasion of england.
The war could have been won - with difficulty - beginning in Mid-June. For a six-week period following the Fall of France he wasted time on a series of disinformation and psi-war ops combined with some rather obtuse diplomatic "approaches" to Britain. In the meantime he and others indulged their various post-Armistice tourist and sightseeing trips, no plans were made by the LW for the bombing campaign...while the RAF was able to replace their aircraft losses in France by about 50%, and the British Army was almost back up to 100% on establishment for artillery by August.
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Re: How could Germany win the war?

Post by lwd »

How could he have won the war in that time period? GErmany was certainly not in a postion to invade Britain and didn't have the aircraft to force them to the table by bombing alone.
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Re: How could Germany win the war?

Post by phylo_roadking »

Actually - although they'd taken major losses in the European campaigns - at that point so had Fighter Command. Technically worse - the LW had lost from ALL types, but events in France had cost a greater percentage pro rata of the RAF's valuable fighters. It was down around 50% of what Dowding thought was the minimum for his integrated defence system.

One of the things that John Ray identifies in his Battle of Britain is that despite ALL sides' paranoia over aeriel bombardement, and the LW's capability and wish to carry it out - NOTHING was done about even planning an aeriel offensive until well into late July - although the units were in place by the end of the third week of June. ALL impetus was lost, whereas the LW were in the position of carrying the war to the UK mainland from the end of June onwards. It's clear now that down at operational level they were willing to, and certainly as late as 1943 were still lecturing officer candidates on the BoB having only been part of a prolonged aerial campaign against England - but at command level simply nothing was done until Hitler gave up on all the various political alternatives.

You can read about Hitler's delays and other "policies" in Peter Fleming's Operation Sealion - out of date now in German detail, but still the best of the summations from the British point of view of political and global events in the period. But John Ray's book is presently the best analyses of events of the BoB and before, as in what put both sides in the positions they were at the beginning of the campaign.
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Re: How could Germany win the war?

Post by august »

britain had fewer than 100 machine guns after dunkirk, little or no coastal defences, and a weak raf. the royal navy saved britain by presence alone. had the bef been destroyed, and an invasion launched i feel certain, based on the numbers and momentum, we would be living in a world with nazi germany as the other superpower, controlling all of europe well into asia and africa. britain, their government in exile, would be fighting from australia ior canada. fortunately, that's not the case.
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Re: How could Germany win the war?

Post by phylo_roadking »

When this was gamed in the 1970's at the Army Staff College at Sandhurst, the result was that although the Germans would get ashore - they wouldn't be able to extend at depth into Kent and Suffolk. After three days the RN Home Fleet in the North Sea swept aside the weak KM forces in the North Sea and entered the Channel - breaking the supply/reinforcement "bridge" and bombarding the bridgehead from the sea.

Against the factor that IF an invasion was launched, by Hitler's directive it would only be under the umbrella of LW air superiority - note, NOT supremacy :wink: - and the military spremacy of the Whermacht against the evacuated and reforming British Army - a number of other factors have to be set.

First of all - the Royal Navy. Despite loosing a large number of SMALL ships at Dunkirk, the RN still could field over a hundred destroyers around the world - and formed an anti-invasion force of 36 of them, with three command cruisers, in Portsmouth, Southampton and the Medway. Against this, apart from the KM's u-boat forces - as of the summer of 1940 HALF the Kreigsmarine was sunk or under repair after the Norwegian campaign. I think the numbers were only FOUR capital ships (cruiser weight or above) and four destroyers undamaged and useable after the capitulation of Norway.

Now - it's often said that the LW could prevent the RN operating in the Channel against the Sealion fleet; the lesson of Norway when the Warspite's task force was attacked by the LW, and a year later off Crete - was that although a surface navy WAS vulnerable (of course, like ANY target) to air attack...a balanced force of small ships, unladen by the tons'-weight of Dunkirk or Crete evacuees. The Warspite was damaged, and ONE destroyer sunk in TWO days of prolonged attack off Norway. Off Crete, the RN took losses during the evacuation because two of the lost ships had to put to sea again without having a chance to restock with AA munitions. Fully stocked - and the English Channel was definitely within reach of resupply - RN destroyers and AA cruisers COULD stand a good chance of holding off air attack.

Meanwhile - and a good source for the next part is Peter Fleming's book - the invasion itself would require around three weeks' of prolonged sailing by the invasion flotilla back and forth across the Channel. EVERYTHING would have to be moved in an environment with no Mulberry and very possibly no UK ports being taken until the second or third week. To all the human materiel required to be moved - hundreds of thousands of tons of HORSE FODDER would even have to be moved by the fleet to keep the Wehrmacht's "transport" moving :shock: That's THREE WEEKS at a minimum that the Germans have to keep enemy air or sea assets from breaking the Channel "bridge"....

Against this you can now add the efforts by night ( and day) of Bomber Command historically in bargebusting, literally night after night through the summer and early autumn of 1940. As well as facing repeated demands for the barges gathered, the backbone of Europe's riverine traffic, to be returned to keep Europe's raw material moving, they eventually had to be moved further and further away from the shortest crossing point and original mustering points in an attempt to reduce the RAF's depredations.

I've yet to see a good study in ONE LOCATION of who fast the British Army actually DID rebuild and re-form after Dunkirk; one thing that is often neglected however is the 225,000 men of BEF II that were evacuated in June from Brittany and further south; THESE men didn't arrive back in the UK in the same state as the original BEF in Flanders, they only arrived back sans their equipment, they had suffered VERY little in the way of disorganisation or casualties or other losses - having only been landed in Atlantic-facing France AFTER the BEF began to break in Belgium! The only major loss to BEF II was the 51st (Highland) Division which surrendered at St Valery-en-Caux.

In fact - if you look closely - ALL the comments by Prime Ministers, generals etc. about the disorganised state of the British Army and its lack of equipment ALL date from June 1940; very soon, in only a matter of weeks, comments like "the Canadian 1 st Infantry Division being the only combat-ready formation in the UK" soon vanish from the historical record :wink:

People often point to the Home Guard and say the British were bound to be beaten if that was all they had to stop the Wehrmacht; they rarely look at the whole view of the prospective battlefield...what the British were planning to do was what caused the US tens of thousands of casualties on Okinawa and made them paranoid about invading the Japanese Home Islands - on land they intended to fight thir MAIN battle inland - away from the coast. British coastal defences - and may of them can still be seen today alongside various stretches of the coast, and seen in pictures of the period - were remarkably weak compared to, say, the later Atlantic Wall. The British visibly didn't intend to make their stand on them, they were JUST to delay the invaders. Likewise, the Home Guard wasn't ever expected to defeat the Germans - just sponge them up, cause them casualties and delays. The one thing that France HAD cost the British Army was its [armour - and though the Army's complement of 25pdrs could be back on establishment by August, replacing tanks was far more difficult for it depended on the output of steel foundruies, armourers, engine companies, AND the factories cobbling the whole thing together at the end!...so quite simply the British Army intended to fight an "old-fashioned" battle of artillery-stiffened static defence lines and do without its armour.

They also look at defence lines during the war like the Seigfried Line, the Maginot Line, the Mareth Line, the Caesar Line etc. - and DON'T see the 3000+ pillboxes and bunkers built around London and in the Home Counties in the summer of 1940 :wink: Nor do they at first though remember that a British artillery-stiffened series of static defences was what defeated the DAK and the Italians in the first Seige of Tobruk :wink:
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Re: How could Germany win the war?

Post by lwd »

phylo_roadking wrote:When this was gamed in the 1970's at the Army Staff College at Sandhurst, the result was that although the Germans would get ashore - they wouldn't be able to extend at depth into Kent and Suffolk. After three days the RN Home Fleet in the North Sea swept aside the weak KM forces in the North Sea and entered the Channel - breaking the supply/reinforcement "bridge" and bombarding the bridgehead from the sea....
I seam to recall the RN was assumed out of the action in the first two or three days so they could justify the invasion. NOt much of a game ofor the aarmy types if the RN is allowed to sink the invasion fleet.

I find the 100 maching gun figure mentioned by someone esle rather questionable. Wasn't there at least one fulll division in Britain at the time? With all the other units around that number just seams way too low.
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