Germans = Nazis?!?

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
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101stDoc
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Re: Just look at Goldhiggin

Post by 101stDoc »

Opa wrote:
The regime was no democracy, but then, which country was perfect then? Until 1941, Jews, while oppressed, were less so than Negroes in Alabama, miscegenation laws in Germany had definitions of Jews much less strict than those applied to Black people in Virginia, with its "one drop rule" since 1924

Also Hitler, while brutal, had killed at most 100,000 people yet (bad, but on the lines of Somoza or Castro) while Stalin had murdered 20 million and had not stopped yet. So as of Summer 1941, who was the, relatively speaking, more moral side was clear.

Holocaust of the Indians

But I looked at his textbook--no Gulag, no Stalin, no Mao.
As to your first point, indeed racism existed here in the states (and still does as it does pretty much everywhere else...nature of man), but compairing those lynchings to a nationally sanctioned plan of genocide are two differn't things. ;P

As to your comment on the Soviet Union, I don't think either of the two (Germany or the Soviet Union) where on any moral high ground in that particular example. Though I do somewhat agree from where you are coming from.

As to the "holocaust of the Indians", bunk. Yes, there were horrible atrocities done to the American Indian, but they were NOTHING compaired to the holocaust. If the US government had done what the German gov tried to do in WW2, most of the American Indian population would have probably been annihilated (eventually, after years of attrition). There were also horrible atrocities committed against both civilian and military non-AI folks...something conveniently forgotten in those types of arguements, and not all of them were as a result of colonial expansionism to the west. SOme of em just plain didn't like us, and for many the feeling is mutual. It didnt help that we got involved in inter-tribal wars by supporting one side over the other either.

As to textbooks, I totally agree with you. History education is not well here, but thank god it hasn't fallen to the atrocious levels of Japan (yet).

Doc
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Post by 101stDoc »

Don wrote:Few people, I'm thinking of Americans in this case, take the time to understand what Germany was like after WWI.
I would agree most Americans TODAY are fairly ignorant of what Germany was like in the "Inter-War" era, and to a degree even DURING the Inter-War era, but they wern't totally clueless. In fact, some felt Germany got off too easy. Germany, in terms of material infrastructure, didn't suffer anywhere near as badly as say France, Belgium and probably the UK did in WW1. Only loss of life and military equipment was "up there". Many people wanted to destroy German Imperial landmarks as a punishment. Most people didn't care that Germany was having horrible economic problems. Many felt that it was Germany's own fault and if they starved to death, tough. Don't invade your neighbors and this kind of thing probably won't happen. I'm not saying I agree with them, but I do agree Germany had far less to whine about than say France.

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C. Udentz

German=Nazi

Post by C. Udentz »

101,

Would you consider yourself ignorant and unqualified in German matters?
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Re: German=Nazi

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C. Udentz wrote:Would you consider yourself ignorant and unqualified in German matters?
In some yes, in others no.

Only an arrogant (and probably ignorant) person such as yourself would suggest otherwise).

Doc
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by julian »

German soldiers swore an oath to the head of state , which was Adolf Hitler at that time. If somebody else would have become head of state, a new oath would have had to be sworn.
Swearing an oath to the head of state is not uncommon. It is what you mostly find in monarchies. German senior officers preferred this more personal bond.
Whatever the wording, in practice it does not make a difference because army soldiers will practically always have to be politically loyal and obey the orders of the commander in chief which is the head of state, all that within the limits of the law. Swearing allegiance to the head of state with or without mention of the name of the holder of the office does not imply not being bound to the constitution and the laws.
And those that state that these soldiers served Hitler and not their country forget that what serves the country is determined by the government, not the armed forces. The government determines foriegn policy, the armed forces fight the wars than can result from it and obey the orders of the commander in chief and those appointed by him.
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Re:

Post by Florin »

101stDoc wrote:
Don wrote:Few people, I'm thinking of Americans in this case, take the time to understand what Germany was like after WWI.
I would agree most Americans TODAY are fairly ignorant of what Germany was like in the "Inter-War" era, and to a degree even DURING the Inter-War era, but they wern't totally clueless. In fact, some felt Germany got off too easy. Germany, in terms of material infrastructure, didn't suffer anywhere near as badly as say France, Belgium and probably the UK did in WW1. Only loss of life and military equipment was "up there". Many people wanted to destroy German Imperial landmarks as a punishment. Most people didn't care that Germany was having horrible economic problems. Many felt that it was Germany's own fault and if they starved to death, tough. Don't invade your neighbors and this kind of thing probably won't happen. I'm not saying I agree with them, but I do agree Germany had far less to whine about than say France.

Doc
Doc, you missed an important factor: hunger, starting with 1917 and continuing a decade after WWI.
The Allies continued the naval blockade a half of year after the Armistice from November 1918, and that meant worse and worse hunger and malnutrition for the average citizen from the former Central Powers.
In 1919 a half of the births in what is today the Czech Republic ended with dead newborn, because of starvation.
In 1918 the mayor of Vienna confiscated vessels with wheat harvested in Romania, risking an open conflict with Germany. The grain loads had destination Germany, but people in Vienna were dying of hunger, so the mayor did what he did.
And in Germany, in 1920-1930, it was common weekly picture to see passenger trains filled with people from cities, going to countryside to obtain food by exchanging objects or money (when the latter were not useless).
One of the propaganda successes of the National Socialist Part in early 1930's was to go with trucks filled with breads trough cities and give one bread per day per family. Today this may mean nothing. Back then it was matter of life or death.

Otherwise, I agree with a part of your message.
I noticed that excepting Turkey and Bulgaria (the latter in the closing weeks of WWI) the civilians of the Central Powers did not feel directly the pain of war and enemy occupation. Other than hunger and letters with updates about relatives died on front, the war was something distant for people in Germany, Austria and Hungary.
The civilians in most countries that were not eager to start WWII (France, Belgium, Poland, Russia / Ukraine, Romania) felt directly in World War One the pain of foreign military occupation.
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by Tom Houlihan »

WHO started WWI again???
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by ljadw »

Armistice does not mean that the war is over,thus,the blockade was legal.
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

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And in Germany, in 1920-1930, it was common weekly picture to see passenger trains filled with people from cities, going to countryside to obtain food by exchanging objects or money (when the latter were not useless).
One of the propaganda successes of the National Socialist Part in early 1930's was to go with trucks filled with breads trough cities and give one bread per day per family. Today this may mean nothing. Back then it was matter of life or death.
I've the distinct feeling you're conflating just too many historical events with the Economic Blockade more than ten years before; the Weimar Republic for example had become a relatively wealthy nation again by the end of the 1920s...what happened THEN was of course the Wall Street Crash and the cold wind of the Depression that spread to Europe...

...and in mid-decade you'd the several years of economic chaos as a result of the Gemans themselves trying to "quantitively ease" I.E. print money! - to get themselves out of the effects of the French occupation. Noone devalued the mark except the Germans themselves.
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Re: Re:

Post by julian »

Florin wrote: Otherwise, I agree with a part of your message.
I noticed that excepting Turkey and Bulgaria (the latter in the closing weeks of WWI) the civilians of the Central Powers did not feel directly the pain of war and enemy occupation. Other than hunger and letters with updates about relatives died on front, the war was something distant for people in Germany, Austria and Hungary.
The civilians in most countries that were not eager to start WWII (France, Belgium, Poland, Russia / Ukraine, Romania) felt directly in World War One the pain of foreign military occupation.
You are seriously underestimating the food problems in Germany and Austria-Hungary. The situation was dire by 1917 and was the cause of the inner unrest. It was only the food which could be imported from Romania and the Ukraine that saved Germany ,Austria and Bulgaria from starvation.
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by julian »

Tom Houlihan wrote:WHO started WWI again???
Not one particular country. Given that the major powers were linked by treaties, any conflict between two countries would involve the others.
The only reason so much fuss is made about ww1 is that it was so long and caused so many casualties. Otherwise, it would just have been one of these many wars that happened over the centuries in Europe.
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by julian »

ljadw wrote:Armistice does not mean that the war is over,thus,the blockade was legal.
If you use that method, you will cause a lot of hardship ,including deaths among the enemy civilian population and you are certainly not credible anymore when you allegedly get upset when your opponent hits your civilians.
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by Tom Houlihan »

Actually, Julian, the answer I was looking for was "not the Germans." They just got the blame.
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by ljadw »

A war without deaths among the evemy civilians is impossible .
The Germans asked for an armistice,and,they got one,subjected to a number of conditions .When the war was over (june 1919),the blockade was stopped.
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Re: Germans = Nazis?!?

Post by ljadw »

Tom Houlihan wrote:Actually, Julian, the answer I was looking for was "not the Germans." They just got the blame.

This is questionable .
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