Night Operations

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:41 pm

Did the Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS train extensively for night operations? I've read part of an U.S. Army paper that stated that the Soviets had trained hard before Barbarossa for night operations and that the Germans had conceded superiority in this to the Soviets by the time of Zhukov's winter counteroffensive.

Cordially,

Freiritter

derGespenst · Post by **derGespenst** » Thu May 20, 2004 8:59 am

Night operations were relatively rare in WW II by any army and those that occurred were generally small in scale. The Russians may have trained for it but didn't make much use of it until fairly late.

While I'm not sure of any details, I do know that the Waffen SS were way ahead of the Wehrmacht (and most other countries) in pioneering tactics that we wold recognize as "modern" today, laying heavy emphasis on concealed approaches, operating in limited visibility and, most especially, relying heavily on the training and initiative of the common soldier. This would be a big boon to night operations, though I'm not aware that such a thing was actively sought.

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Thu May 20, 2004 12:24 pm

Necessity is the mother of invention too...Prior to Normandy the 12th SS
trained extensively in night ops - partly because of allied air superiority.

The British / Canadians started doing it as we;; simply because they tired of having their tanks slaughtered by high velocity guns at long range. Simmonds for one was willing to accept the accompanying confusion to get inside the German defenses.

cheers
Reb

rognop · Post by **rognop** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:09 am

Hi, I'm a newcomer here, and I am allso interested in this subject.
There is a article here, that may help this topic:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 84/WME.htm

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:24 pm

derGespenst wrote:Night operations were relatively rare in WW II by any army and those that occurred were generally small in scale. The Russians may have trained for it but didn't make much use of it until fairly late.

The russians were well trained in night operations from the beginning on and used this skill from the beginning which is also mentioned in a manual I am explaining further down in this post.

derGespenst wrote:While I'm not sure of any details, I do know that the Waffen SS were way ahead of the Wehrmacht (and most other countries) in pioneering tactics that we wold recognize as "modern" today, laying heavy emphasis on concealed approaches, operating in limited visibility and, most especially, relying heavily on the training and initiative of the common soldier. This would be a big boon to night operations, though I'm not aware that such a thing was actively sought.

After many years of research I do not know a single tactic of the W-SS that was exclusive or way ahead of the Wehrmacht but maybe you can post some referenced proofed examples for your claim.
Actually the Wehrmacht brought out the first 45 pages manual in late 1941 with the first analysed experiences with night combat against russian forces with several tactics and equipment regulations. The document was ordeed to be given out to all Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS units in training and at the front. Sorry no W-SS advantage in the case of night combat.

\Christoph

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:38 pm

Christoph

Are you aware of any differences in attention to night training between divisions trained in the channel area and elsewhere? I'm not clear on just what was the reach of allied ground attack aircraft in mid '43 and I don't think the Russians were able to hit German or Western Polish soil at that time.

I'm assuming that divs trained in the west might then simply because of the air threat train more in the dark.

re SS - the W-ss also employed Heer trainers (and 12 SS at least had a significant number of Heer officers attached) but were denied access to the Heer reserve pipeline - it seems that late in Normandy they were pretty much out of reinforcements and would remain so until the infusion of people during the pre-Ardennes refit.

cheers
Reb

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:23 pm

Hello

Reb especially with the topic night operations you have to differ greatly between combat techniques, tactics and regulations of infantry tanks or night operations in the sense of driving, supplying, movement etc...

Drivers (tanks, trucks etc..), personnel of supply formations, transport formations etc... were well trained in night operatiosn already from the beginning because these things usually happened in the night after the combat formations reported their needs.

I am not aware and think that there were any differences between divisions in the west and eastfront. Many of them were in action in both theaters.
All regulations I know deal with night operations of infantry formations while from early 1943 night fighting training topics show up in training schedules of Panzer formations. Night driving and maintenance does show up with motorized formations from the beginning.

\Christoph

Imad · Post by **Imad** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:47 pm

I do not know how substantiated this is but I did read a long time ago - cannot remember the source though - that the Waffen SS did pioneer the use of the mottled camouflage outfits that were used in combat. If that is true wouldn't that be one area where they were actually ahead of Heer troops?
Imad

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:51 pm

Imad wrote:I do not know how substantiated this is but I did read a long time ago - cannot remember the source though - that the Waffen SS did pioneer the use of the mottled camouflage outfits that were used in combat. If that is true wouldn't that be one area where they were actually ahead of Heer troops?
Imad

What does a camouflage outfit have to do with tactics??? But if you want to play games.. the Heer tested and used the excellent fully tracked recon vehicle Pz.II Ausf.L exclusively. 1:1 .. we can continue playing if you like.

\Christoph

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:03 am

As was already said, the Eastern front did see quite some night fighting.

Another theater which imediately comes to mind is North Africa, where fighting during the night is mentioned in every book that I have read up untill now - it was supposed to be easier for the infantry to fight at night due to the heat and other factors in that unfriendly enviroment.

But, on the second hand I do not know if there was any particular training, except for the ones Christoph mentioned, for night fighting. It could be, that night fighting was a thing which could be only thought through experiance on the battlefield. (??)

best,
Miha

Terje · Post by **Terje** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:17 am

Uh. Night operations as in night combat? Try sighting at anything with a K98 with standard sights in the darkness. Then watch a couple of flashes, and try sighting again. Doesn't work that well, does it. I'd say night combat by infantry units doesn't work that well unless there's a clear starry night or the full moon is up and visible.

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:35 am

You have your point, but please, don't say that night operations and night combat are not related...And just tell me, how did the battle of El Alamein go again? As I remember there was plenty of night shooting going on. As for the moon and the stars, operations were planned to take place at such moments to allow light in the night time if that was required - at least in the desert.

best,
Miha

Terje · Post by **Terje** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:43 am

I don't have my reference books with me at the moment, but as i recall the infantry attacks used to start at dawn - unless, as we both agree, there was sufficient light from star or moorn to see. In which it is technically night but the conditions are fairly similar to dawn or dusk.

Or don't we differ between night combat and darkness combat here?

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:27 am

I think we are just a bit different in the terms of darkness combat and night combat.

I know this might sound silly, but I think we neglected one thing - the defending enemy almost certainly had some illumination rockets or other means of making the battlefield brighter...

best,
Miha

Imad · Post by **Imad** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:42 am

Christoph Awender wrote:
Imad wrote:I do not know how substantiated this is but I did read a long time ago - cannot remember the source though - that the Waffen SS did pioneer the use of the mottled camouflage outfits that were used in combat. If that is true wouldn't that be one area where they were actually ahead of Heer troops?
Imad
What does a camouflage outfit have to do with tactics??? But if you want to play games.. the Heer tested and used the excellent fully tracked recon vehicle Pz.II Ausf.L exclusively. 1:1 .. we can continue playing if you like.

\Christoph

Fair enough. I did not realize we were talking exclusiveley about tactics. I rest my case.
Imad

Feldgrau.net

Night Operations

Night Operations

Night Ops