Churchill - racist and anti-semite

Christian · Post by **Christian** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:51 pm

Enrico,

Vietman was not genocide (a word too much used and abused, I think). It was a defensive war (the Americans didn' t invade the enemy land, what a political and military idiocy, like to play soccer only in his own half of the champ hoping to win) against the North Vietnamese which tried to invade the south.

I completely agree.

Here is the definition of genocide: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

While there are many examples that come to mind when speaking about genocide (Cambodia, Rwanda, Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.), Vietnam is certainly not one. In fact, this is the first time I have ever heard somebody making such an absurd correlation.

In respect to the Iraq comments, Henrik very conveniently fails to mention that this regime was responsible for the slaughtering of thousands of Kurds and Shiites, for torturing and raping its own citizens, for invading neighboring countries and starting a war that claimed about a million lives, for financing terrorism, for deceiving the world community for over a decade while leaving its population to suffer the consequences, for using oil money to live ostentatiously and for buying support in the world, etc.

No matter how one may feel about the conflict last year, one thing is certain, the world is better off without such a regime.

Cheers,

Christian

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:18 pm

There are far more worse and more dangerous regimes than the Iraqi - the Israeli or the North Korean, for instance. Or the US-American. They are illegally invading other countries, killing thousands of civilians and does not respect international law, not the human rights nor the Geneva conventions. With all respect, the government of Iraq was nothing compared to the current regime of USA. Besides, USA is not a democracy - either. Some people still remember which person actually won the last election in that country. In Europe many people consider USA a semi-fascist police state lead by a religious fanatic.

More on topic: We should also remember that the consentration camps was a British invention from war in South Africa, where they exterminated a large number of Boer civilians. I would call it genocide.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:36 am

Hi Henrik,

The person now president of the USA is the legitimate winner of the election.

Due to an archaic electoral system it is possible to win legally with less than half the popular vote.

George Bush won the election entirely legally, even in Florida, where the recount actually increased his narrow lead over Gore.

The USA is a democracy, if an imperfect one.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ah, yes, the old "Well the British invented the concentration camp" side-step designed to try and make Nazism's genocidal policies look like a part of a venerable Western tradition.

Yup. The British invented the term "Concentration Camp" and the death of up to 20,000 Boer civilians in them was a disgrace. However, they did not invent the concept of sweeping civilians from the countryside and they did not invent the "Extermination Camp."

Reprehensible as it undoubtedly was, it was not genocide because there was no attempt to exterminate the Boers and, unlike Nazi Germany and its Extermination Camps, the British took steps to lower the death rate. Within a year the death rate in the concentration camps had fallen to below that of many British cities. The death rate in Glasgow, so-called "Second City of the Empire" is usually cited as a case in point.

There are other threads on Feldgrau that cover this subject.

Next.

Cheers,

Sid.

Liam · Post by **Liam** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:41 am

Churchill (who was half-American by the way) certainly wanted to gas Kurdish tribespeople, but due to opposition in parliament and practical difficulties it never happened. This is one of many examples of Churchill's hot-headedness being quashed by others (as often occurs in these pesky democracies). The point is, of course, that it never happened. If we said that Heydrich, for instance, planned the final solution, but never carried it out due to opposition in the Reichstag, it would just be another historical maybe. This is why you can't really compare the UK's various 'nasties' with those of Nazi Germany. At no stage did they ever set out to wipe out entire peoples. The UK set up concentration camps during the very unpleasant Boer war. Yes. Their purpose was not to kill Boers but to keep them under lock and key but many died of malnutrition and disease due to the incompetence of those who ran them. This is so. Did many British journalists, MPs and members of the public object to these camps? Yes. Can't imagine that happening in Poland or Russia circa 1942-45, can you?

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:50 am

Hi Liam,

You can add the "Morgenthau Plan" to the list of daft ideas that self-righting liberal democracy rejected.

Liberal democracy can't stop people putting up disreputable ideas, but it has a much better record than authoritarian regimes in making sure that they aren't acted upon.

Cheers,

Sid.

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:04 am

Take care with this enthusiasm for democracy humanity, Gentlemen.
Not to seem cynic but what about the sad fate of the ex Russians and easstern people (Croats, Serb, ect.), delivered to the Russians and Tito in May 1945? There were some hundred of thousand of civilians too. They were slaughtered.
The true is that war is evil and the only way to avoid it is not to do wars BUT the so called pacifist system to close the eyes believing that war is not a aprt of the human race history is an idiot one, like to destroy hospitals to be sure there there will be no more epicemic crisis.
The right way is to study this phenomenon in th edeeper way.
If we are looking for the cruelties of history we could all write a damned encyclopaedia, but to estabilish who was th eworte is an ardour purpose.
If we go at the numerical profile it's not a morale way as the life of any single victim is holy and it's impossible to say: "My score is only 5.000, your one 6 millions so you are a bastard, but my ally is 20 millions so I was on the wrong side2. It's all absurd, I think.
Bye EC

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:29 am

Hi Enrico,

You give a useful example. Whereas the worst that the liberal democracies can be accused of is handing these people over, it was one authoritarian dictatorship that had enlisted them in it forces in the first place and another authoritarian dictatorship that actually killed them.

I don't think anyone would claim that liberal democracy is perfect, but it comes off well by comparison with authoritarian dictatorships of right or left.

Cheers,

sid.

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:06 am

Hi Sid,
unfortunatly it's not difficoult to find ugly examples, war and history offer a plenty of them.
"Handing these people over" is an understatment as the Geneva convention forbid the change of captros for the POWs (and Churchill wrote in July 1943 by the Swoss government menacing King Victor Emanuel "of no mercy for his country" if the 80.000 British and Imperial POWs of white race would be delivered to the Germans (a typical way to judge according two different standards quite characteristic of the Anglosaxon culture).
About the civilians it was a different matter. Following a legalitarian procedure it would have been necessary to give only women, old people and pupils to the comunist while the POWs were protected by the Geneva convention. As the Doeniz government was sacked only on 23 May 1945 removing any further government in Germany (like the germans in Poland in oct. 1939) this was simply an abuse (the unconditional surrender do not contest the rights of the Geneva convention; a proof is available in the fact that to trial Kaitel and the other generals at Nurnberg it was necessary to dismiss them in a formal way, with indegnity (of course as a further proof of bad taste as this act was amde before the trial) from the German Army on 23 Aug. 1943 (in other terms the unconditional surrender and the following seizure of the last German government had not abolished, legally, the German Army; perhaps the Anglosaxons believed really at the fairy-tale of the state within the state).

I said anyway, that democracy, with all its records of horror and, above all, lack of honour, is a more efficient system than any dicatorship or oligarchy.
In Italy the 1917 Caporetto crisis was overcome by the following parliamentary debate and the intellectual measures adopted almost at once. The Mussolini personal crisis of 1943 and the pure idiocy of the Italian generals after the 25 July 1943 coup were a confirmation that only democracy is the best killer (and so winner of war) available among all the other system. It's sad but it's tested, in any future war, after the cold one and the actual colonial campaigns, I would bet only on democracies at work, the only form of power able to obtain the perfect mix in efficiency and enemy mortality-rate.

Bye EC

Rodger Herbst · Post by **Rodger Herbst** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:46 am

I,like a lot of Americans are used to getting bashed,but it gets tiresome after awhile.As i stated in another forum the only mistakes we made after WW2 was the Marsall Plan and the Berlin airlift,as for the election,i live in Florida so know a bit about it.Before you start about being anti German let me clue you in,my grandfather came from Potsdam in the Kingdom of Prussia,my wife is of German heritage,when my grandfather got off the boat he joined the Union army and fought in the Civil War to end slavery.
I have lot of respect for the German military,but i'l let others like Sid and Enrico argue the finer points,but dammit,when your wrong your wrong!

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:47 am

And when you are right, like in this occasion, you are right indeed Rodger.
Bye EC

PS Don't blame the Marshal plan, anyway. Ther's also a (I presume) majority of Christian social and democratic Germans who doesn't like the actual Government old left foreign policy style. EC

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm

What is "old" with the German foreign policy? It is a sign of bright future. Soon will Europe, dominated by Germany and France, rule our part of the world again, and the Union will be even more powerful than the bankrupt state of USA.

Schultz · Post by **Schultz** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:27 pm

OK lets mention how the Europeans started all the crap in the world from clonizing everywhwere introducing slavery so they can have tea (well slavery been around a long time) dont know what that one guy was talkin about the civil war wasn't about slavery.
You knockin Bush but he alot better than clinton , of course you probly liked clinton he was a drug dealer and an asshole along with his boy girl friend wife hillary that was in charge of the education system an baught food from cheaper places and killed some people the bitch should be in jail and her girlfriend.
The clintons that put us at war with serbia who we should be on the side of since it was bosnians that gave passports to guys that blew up towers.
We should have taken out Greece when there commie protesters raped and killed that officers wife there and his daughters.
You can bash the US all you want but don't wanna hear you whinin when yer own country tells you what to do.

Schultz

Rodger Herbst · Post by **Rodger Herbst** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:09 pm

I know the Civil War was to perserve the Union,but the emancipation proclamation was signed at this time.I'm knocking the Marsall Plan with
tongue in cheek,you know for all those "friends" of ours who now call us a bankrupt nation because we spent our money bailing them out.We support all thier social programs because they won't spend any more for defence than they have to,that little war in the Balkan's they should have been able to handle,it was right next door,but good ole Uncle Sam has to go over and get involved,they want US to carry the defence load for those
free loaders who are always whining about the way we do things,but you can bet your ass all they do is talk,it's about time they put thier money where thier mouth is,of course i know we can count on the Brits and a few other friends.Over 3,000 people were killed on 9/11 i think we got a reason to be pissed off.

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:10 pm

I think we are quite out form the institutional Forum path going along a nowhere road.
If we are going to come back to the natural themes of his Forum (Germany Forces history since late 1918 until 1945) I'm ready; if the purpose is to pass from legitimate critic to a free offensive position against a campaign where soldiers of my country - Italy - are at war suffering losses I can't go on.
I would not respect anyone who is speaking, or worste, against his own fellow countrymen on the battlefield, whoever is the enemy, Marvin from Mars of the Looney Tunes included, and I think that any member of this Forum believe in the same principles.
Bye EC

PS Mit Hals und Beinbruch Henrik (just to see if you are able to speak German) EC

Christian · Post by **Christian** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:13 pm

Soon will Europe, dominated by Germany and France, rule our part of the world again, and the Union will be even more powerful than the bankrupt state of USA.

Wishful thinking is just that, wishful thinking.

Cheers,

Christian