Why didn't the allies also declare war on Russia?

[Dackelstaffel]

Hi Sid,

I think like you, Czechoslovakia was created only by the dismantling of the Austrian empire.

So long

[sid guttridge]

Hi Das Reich,

The figures given in 1944 by VOMI, which was, I think, the German resettlement agency in the East, clearly show that even in Danzig-West Preussen and Wartheland, the two main areas Germany annexed from Poland in 1939, Germans were in a clear minority.

Indeed, in the whole of pre-war Poland there may have been as few as 750,000 Germans, but the areas Germany annexed in 1939 (including the General Government) contained at least fifteen times as many people. Of these, some 6 million Poles and Jews later died while in German custody.

That the German minority was not always well treated by the Poles between the wars is true. However, its suffering did not compare remotely with that of Poles and Jews at German hands during the war.

Most of the areas of Poland disputed by Germany in 1939 were Polish on demographic grounds in 1914, let alone 1939. Not only the VOMI figures of 1944 indicate this, but a German demographic atlas I possess published in 1934 and a general German atlas of 1900. I have given details of both these publications on Feldgrau before.

The above is from memory. I will be more specific next week, when I get home to my sources.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Das_Reich]

Sid, I eagerly await your research on this sticky subject.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Das Reich,

To save time, you might care to look at the "Political Context of the Polish Campaign" thread started by Einsamer Wolf on the "Campaigns and Battles" section.

My post on 17 October 2002 gives a couple of the sources I mention above.

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Das Reich,

As promised, the official German figures for the original German population of areas annexed from Poland in 1939:

Polish Terrritories of the Reichsgau Danzig-Wes Preussen: 210,000.
Polish Territories of the Reichsgau Wartheland: 230,000.
Polish Territories attached to the Provinz of east Prussia: 31,000.
Eastern Upper Silesia: 238,000.
Generalgouvernment: 80,000.
TOTAL: 789,000

These can be found on Page 6 of "Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans from East-Central Europe." Volume 1, Bonn, 1954. The source is given as 1944 editions of "Kleinen Umsiedlungsspiegel", which was the newspaper of the official German resettlement agency.

It should be noted that the 1931 Polish census gave 741,000 Germans as living in Poland, so there is a high degree of overall agreement between German and Polish sources on this issue.

Thus there is no doubt that Germans were only a small minority of the population of the areas annexed by Germany from Poland in 1939, even discounting the Generalgouvernment.

Cheers,

Sid.

[LukeMiguez]

Hey Sid, I was refering to Poland and the fact that German land was taken, with German people living on that land. These German people were mistreated by the Poles and even the most left wing Euorpean socialist cannot honestly deny this fact.

Well, remember that Prussia which later became Germany annexed Polish lands and suppressed the Polish Culture for over a 100 Years. After their Independance in 1919 Poland vowed that it'd never be Partitioned like it was in the 18th Century again. The Poles suppressed the Germans probably because they didn't want them calling for breaking away back to Germany.

Also I believe that Great Britain and France didn't declare war on thr Russians because they simply didn't have anywhere to attack them from.

[Pirx]

1. Britain and France was so surprised, and they didn't planed war wit USSR. Remember, that UK sent politics to sign USSR-UK pact few days before Ribbentrop came to Moscow. Western powers wanted Stalin as ally as wel as Hitler did.
2. To Das_Reich: Reichsgau Wartheland was anected from Poland by Prussian king in 1791, and Gniezno near Posen was Polish capital in years 960-1320, when it was moved to Cracov. Danzig was known as Gdansk in Thietmar chronicle from XI century, and was taken from Poland in 1795, and named Danzig. in 1938 in Germany lives also almost 1 mio Poles with german citizienship. For example in Beuthen, Gliwitz or Oppeln Poles were majority, and in Breslau lived over 60 000 Poles. My Grandpa was born in Upper Silesia near Oppeln. All polish names of towns and villiges was changed in 1935 by Hitlers order for example town Olesno was named Rosenberg, Kluczbork - Kreuzburg etc. So don't believe that Germans thought that was they homeland.

[Fredd]

Indeed, in the whole of pre-war Poland there may have been as few as 750,000 Germans,
Sid.

And in US there were not less than 2 millions Germans (or people of German origin) so Mr Hitler should invade US first...

Best regards!

[sid guttridge]

Hi Fredd,

I think I am right that in the latest US census more people gave German as their ethnic origin than English. That must mean 50 million plus of today's Americans are of German stock!

Anyone got the exact figures?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Freiritter]

I don't have exact figures unfortunately, though I do think that Germans and Irish make up the majority of Americans with European heritage.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Freiritter,

I remember from an earlier census (1981?) that there were then 48.5 million claiming English descent, 48 million claiming German descent and 40 million claiming Irish descent. However, the majority of the Irish were actually of Scots-Irish (Ulster) origin.

Cheers,

Sid.

[4444]

The secret add-in (not sure the name, protocol, appendix or anything else) to the Anglo-Polish Treaty specified that British obligations are binding only in case of the German attack, and Polish obligations are binding only in case of the Italian attack

I regret to admit I misled whoever bothered to read my piece on the secret Anglo-Polish protocol to the Mutual Assistance Treaty of August 1939. An Italian aggression against the UK was mentioned only in the draft version of the document, prepared by the Foreign Office. Poland, who enjoyed quite good relations with Italy, persuaded the British to drop this stipulation in exchange for the British assistance being limited only to the case of a German aggression.

It does not take a genius to notice that the Polish diplomacy adopted a pretty suicidal strategy. The British concession regarding Italy was almost meaningless for the Poles. The Polish concession, given in exchange, was difficult to overestimate: it absolved the British from any action against the USSR later on.

[4444]

I have often wondered why the allies didn't declare war on Russia when Germany and Russia invaded Poland. Doeas anyone have any evidence as to the motive in only going after Germany?

Reflecting upon the British stance towards the Soviet attack on Poland in Sep 1939, I have recollected myself one more thing. Throughout the entire interwar period, significant share of the British public opinion and political strata viewed the Poles as petty imperialists, oppressing the Lithuanians, Belorussians and Ukrainians on the territories stolen from Russia. Not few would see some logic in the Soviet takeover of these provinces in 1939. All right, Churchill was probably a bit carried away by his own rhetoric when on June 22, 1941 he proclaimed on „Russian soldiers standing on the threshold of their native land, guarding the fields which their fathers have tilled from time immemorial”, but this might have been a Freudian mistake.

[sid guttridge]

Hi 4444,

If a purely ethno-linguistic standpoint is taken, Poles were in a clear minority to Ukrainians and Byelorussians in the area annexed by the USSR in September 1939.

However, there are other factors to be considered. Ukrainians, Byelorussians and other non-Polish minorities may not have been particularly happy with Polish rule, but many or most may have felt it was preferable to Soviet rule. However, many or most may have preferred a third option: national independence from both Poland and the USSR.

The problem is that while ethno-linguistic origin is relatively easy to establish from the 1931 Polish census, the preferences of the population of eastern Poland were not canvassed in 1939 and cannot now be established with similar certainty.

Cheers,

Sid.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi,

Just a crazy What If question :
If Hitler died in november 1939 and the germans withdrew on the 1937 borders. In this case, the Poland occupied by the germans was free but no the russian occupied zone.
What will have been the behaviors of United Kingdom and France.
1) To restore Poland on its former territories
2) To accept the Curzon line and to make a fifth sharing of Poland
3) To do nothing

So long.