Auchinleck

[Rodger Herbst]

Every time i read about the desert war his name comes up usually in a kinda wise ass comment that he was an idiot.From what i gather the man was a pretty good officer and a decent humanbeing,did Montgomery have anything too do with this picture of this man?

[redcoat]

Every time i read about the desert war his name comes up usually in a kinda wise ass comment that he was an idiot.From what i gather the man was a pretty good officer and a decent humanbeing,did Montgomery have anything too do with this picture of this man?

No, Monty didn't attempt to blacken Auchinlecks name, the truth is that he had already lost the faith of the soldiers serving under him by the time of Montys arrival. One of Montys greatest feats of the desert war was the speed in which he managed to restore the morale of the 8th Army in time for the El Alemein battles.

[Rodger Herbst]

After further reading i find Monty hated Auchinleck when they commanded areas in the UK.Why Monty hated this man i can't seem to find out.As for Monty being a fast mover that's a joke,Monty always had a huge advantage in men and material.

[redcoat]

After further reading i find Monty hated Auchinleck when they commanded areas in the UK.Why Monty hated this man i can't seem to find out.As for Monty being a fast mover that's a joke,Monty always had a huge advantage in men and material.

Monty may have hated him, but he had no need to blacken his name with the 8th army, he had already done a good job of that all by himself.
As for your last comment, how is it that American generals never get critized for having huge advantages in men and materials, only Monty. you don't think that might be some bias involved do you?

[John W. Howard]

For some reason it is great fun bashing Montgomery. He was an egotistical pain in the ass at times, but the Allies would have done well to have listened to him on numerous occasions. He did what he thought was necessary to defeat Rommel, an enemy who had baffled the Brits for some time in the desert. I think he realized that the North African Campaign needed to be ended once and for all, and another defeat at the hands of Rommel would have been disastrous for British morale. Therefore he assembled enough force of arms to get the job done. That is the job of a good general.
War is not a game. The object is not to have a fair fight. It is to kill the enemy in droves, while limiting one's own casualties. Assembling an overwhelming force to ensure victory and limit one's own casualties is nothing more than outstanding generalship.

[Rodger Herbst]

I'm only asking why did Montgomery dislike Auchinleck so much,it started before the desert,did Auchinleck do something to rate his hate?

[Patrick]

I picked up Auchinleck's biography at the Imperial War Museum shop a couple days ago. There is no mention of any specific run-ins between the two. There is a transcript of an interview in it, and the interviewer asks why they didn't get along. His reply was very non-specific along the lines of "We just had our different styles, that's all."

[Rodger Herbst]

Thanks Pat,I know we like those non comital answers,I talked it over with a few friends and we came to the conclusion Monty had no use for Indian Army officers of which Auchinleck was one.

[Liam]

It's just occured to me that Monty was rejected from serving in the Indian Army and had to go into an obscure county regiment instead. Maybe he had a grudge against Indian Army types ever since - he was a tad difficult after all.

[Rodger Herbst]

Thats right Liam,i think you had to be in the upper grade at Sandhurst to get into the Indian Army and Monty didn't make it.

[Liam]

Yes, he got a very bad write-up at Sandhurst after setting fire to another cadet! And as the son of a poor clergyman he couldn't get into the Guards either due to excessive mess costs, etc. Out of interest, did the US Army before and during WWII have the same sort of 'league table' of desirable regiments? Did West Pointers get preference?

[Rodger Herbst]

Liam from what i remember the first 7(i think,don't quote me)highest scorers at West Point went to the Engineer Corps,the next to artillery and so forth,I don't think they could choose where they wanted to go,they were assigned by HQ.
There may have been some family strings pulled but i couldn't say for sure.In the South we had and still do have some military acadamies,the southern states are very military minded.We have VMI(Virginia Military Insitute)The Citadel,and very strong ROTC(Reserve Officer Training Corps)at several universities and collages in the south.The saying goes when your in your foxhole you can bet your ass the guy in the next hole won't be from the Ivy League schools.

[raj-rif]

Thanks Pat,I know we like those non comital answers,I talked it over with a few friends and we came to the conclusion Monty had no use for Indian Army officers of which Auchinleck was one.

but monty came to admire his indian troops and indeed count on them, take for instance the battle of wadi akarit, monty put his plan foreward , when general tucker of 4th indian division saw them he advised monty to include the mountains in the battle not just the thin coastal strip and give the mountains to 4th indians, he did this and let them go at night whilst the troops on the plain would attack at dawn, the result was 4th indians in their night attack had the battle won by the time the main assault went in.

when 1st army in tunisia asked monty for troops to help with the final push in north africa, he sent along with the guards brigade, 4th indians and 7th armoured, when asked why later he replied 7th armoured and 4th Indians my two best divisions.

[Reb]

Redcoat

The Brits in 8 Army were not demoralized because of Auchinleck but because of Rommel!

Auchinleck made two very bad decisions: Cunningham and Ritchie.

When he took personal command he was able to fight the DAK to a standstill in front of Alamein. (admittedly - Rommel's lengthening supply line was a factor)

He was the first Brit general in the desert to really use his artillery in mass consistantly and to focus his attacks on Rommel's weakest link - the Italian infantry divisions.

He and Monty had run ins in the UK and Monty disliked the Auk as he seemed to dislike most people he considered a threat.

I note for the record that while it is fun and easy to mock Montgomery I don't think the British could have asked for a better general to command their troops in Normandy. Dash? None. But all in all - he got the job done and put Britain first and that was what he was paid to do.

Exception: he badly botched the Arnhem operation.

Monty's ambition cost him much and he was too egotistical to see that he was not qualified for Ike's job which I think he coveted. Auchinleck was much better qualified for higher commands was was Alexander.

What has hurt Monty most was his appalling personality and post war conduct. I confess that had I the choice of serving under Monty and Auchinleck and I'd choose the Auk. He was a man's man. Monty was sort of a talented freak.

cheers
Reb

[redcoat]

When he took personal command he was able to fight the DAK to a standstill in front of Alamein. (admittedly - Rommel's lengthening supply line was a factor)

It should be noted that it took the Auk almost exactly the same number of casualties to hold Rommel in the first battle of El Alamein (13,000) as it took Monty to destroy the AK as an effective fighting force in the second.