Scandal-How Allies Treated German POW's

Ironrat · Post by **Ironrat** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:37 pm

"I think the problem is not that there are too few people, but fewer and fewer are working and 'maintainging' the retirees. Thus the population aging is the issue. "

Minimus
The population is aging not by itself, but because there is not enough births. Not enough births today will lead in 20 years to a lower country product and less and less births.
This problem is not off-topic. Consider a country like China or India. Even if having a lower GDP per capita they will be able to spend more money than Germany or France on research or their army. The quality is not there but it is a matter of time.
EU accepted last May new members not because, they liked it but because they had to. The same way, the new EU members had to get acces. It is for both a matter of future survival.
Wars and armies are an economical and demographic problem.
What I meant is that WWII killings will have negative effects for everybody from the old continent way into the future.
Cheers
Ironrat

Dackel Staffel · Post by **Dackel Staffel** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:45 pm

Ironrat wrote: they will be able to spend more money than Germany or France on research or their army.

It isn't very hard to spend more money than these two countries.

Tom Houlihan · Post by **Tom Houlihan** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:42 pm

Gerhard, it's interesting to hear that you are now going to get a pension. Does that mean there's been a change in the way your former organization is being viewed by the German government?

Gerhard · Post by **Gerhard** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:49 pm

Hi Tom:
I don't think there has been a change in the governments view. Maybe as the government investigates every applicant and no charges can be laid they finally considering us as what we were, soldiers.
Perhaps that's why it took 2 1/2 years.
Dackel Staffel,
I don't know whether it is for time served or time in the POW camp.
There was a rumor we would get a increase for time spent in the POW camp after 1946 but with their complicated formula it's hard to say.
Those altogether 6 years weren't worth much but like my friend said 'it's a nice gesture"
Gerhard

Dackel Staffel · Post by **Dackel Staffel** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:21 am

Hi Gerhard,

Technically, a POW is still a military even after the end of the war. Only the german governement, or the authority in charge of the country, could demobilize you after your release.
I see it is the same problem everywhere. In France, we have the same kind of problem about Indochina and Algeria wars. If the german governement didn't pay you a pension before it is not only because what you were during the war but also for economic reasons.

So long.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:00 am

Hi Gerhard,

Congratulations.

Sid.

POW · Post by **POW** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:43 am

sid guttridge wrote:I don't suppose the "Stephen Ambrose" you quote in support of Bacque could be the same Stephen Ambrose who wrote this:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bac ... e-001.html

You have been given this information on Feldgrau before as to Stephen Ambrose's real opinion on Bacque.

The site is a silly attempt to discredit Bacque's research as a whole. Ambrose agreed with Bacque on the conditions the Germans faced inside the camps. The quarrel is going about the number of deceased POW and if Eisenhower let the POWs die on purpose or not. But it's safe to say that many POW died due to Eisenhowers indifference and disinterest in the men of his care.

Annelie · Post by **Annelie** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:26 am

Sidney

Yes, congratulations are in order for Gerhard.
It is ridicules how these Veterans have to go through legal and
paper hoops to qualify and receive their little pittance.

I also believe an consideration for those Veterans whom served with Germany but of other nationalities should receive an pension however small.

Annelie

sniper1shot · Post by **sniper1shot** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:17 pm

The victors write the History Books eh.
It is a well known fact that the allies gave the Russians ALL those that were Russian Nationals and fought on the German side....even those that had moved to another country before the war began. The Allies are guilty of not being selective in who they sent back, just picking up everyone and handing them over.
Imagine that eh, Imigrate to another country and then get handed back to them because the victors just didn't care. British were extremely notorious for this.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:57 am

Hi Snipershot,

The Allies, including the British, were not completely unselective as to who they handed over to the USSR. For example, nationalities of SSRs that they did not recognise as Soviet territory (essentially Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians) were not handed back en masse.

However, you are right on one point. It was wrong to hand over to the USSR White Russian emigres who had never been Soviet citizens. This particularly related to those White Russian members of the Cossack Corps who had become nationals of Balkan countries like Bulgaria and Yugoslavia between the wars and were turned over to the USSR by the British in Austria immediately after the end of the war. However, it should be remembered that they were a minority of the Cossacks handed over and, as they could have been handed over quite legally to Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, it seems highly likely they would have ended up in Soviet hands anyway.

Cheers,

Sid.

POW · Post by **POW** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:34 am

sid guttridge wrote:However, it should be remembered that they were a minority of the Cossacks handed over and, as they could have been handed over quite legally to Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, it seems highly likely they would have ended up in Soviet hands anyway.

Sid has an excuse for all Allied wrongs. One of the main goals was the desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned. Well, the "changes" in Poland were just "movements", right? Further Great Britain and the USA wanted to respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live. What a laugh. This and the rest of the Atlantic Charter was forgotten when WW2 ended and Erope was sold out to the Russians in Yalta and Potsdam.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:28 am

Hi POW,

What excuse? "It was wrong to hand over to the USSR White Russian emigres who had never been Soviet citizens" doesn't sound like much of an excuse to me.

And are you disputing the point that most of them could quite legitimately have been handed over to Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, countries of which they had become citizens between the wars and which were by 1945 within the Soviet sphere of influence?

Er, no. The changes in Poland were not just "movements". Where on earth did you get that idea? It certainly wasn't from anything I wrote.

"Great Britain and the USA wanted to respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they live." This may have been true, but were they under some sort of obligation to go to war with the USSR to achieve it? If so, what was this obligation?

It may have escaped your attention that the Western Allies practiced this right of self determination in the parts of Europe they had over run in 1943-45 and conducted a successful Cold War for this right to be extended to the Soviet controlled areas for nearly fifty years.

Cheers,

Sid.

sniper1shot · Post by **sniper1shot** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:57 pm

I read just recently that that British even gave soldiers to Russia that had French Passports and British Medals from WWI.
I know you are going to ask for the book or a reference so off I go to my personal library to find them..........
That doesn't sound too selective to me...sounds more like herding.

Sid;
You are correct on the Latvians, Estonians etc but they were annexed by Russia in the end so they lost out too.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:05 am

Hi Snipershot,

Supposing you do find this source, how significant do you think it would be? I doubt that there were a significant number of French passport holders with British WWI medals and Russian ancestry who were captured by the British in German uniform at the end of the war. There might well be such an individual travesty, but would the virtually unique circumstances allow one to make broader generalisations based on it?

Cheers,

Sid.

sniper1shot · Post by **sniper1shot** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:23 pm

Touche.....

I have one book in my hand right now, Hitler's Renegades.
Last chapter is on the "vengence" or revenge of the victors and it does deal with the Cossacks. Also states that the ppl leaving Czechoslavia were handed right into the hands of the partisans. Needless to say that 90% of these ppl were either executed then and there or died in prisons.
It wasn't just the Russians that were cruel.