Following on from my PzKpfw II question, which was swiftly and accurately answered....
Does anyone know how many of the first 78 A15 Crusaders sent to North Africa were the close support version?
They arrived on convoy WS10x in September 1941.
TIA. David.
A15 Cruusader MkI
Moderator: John W. Howard
A15 Cruusader MkI
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
The first A15 Crusaders arrived in Egypt in May 1941.
More arrived in July and August.
20 arrived in September. They were not on WS10X which did not arrive in September.
Nor did Convoy WS10X, which arrived in October, carry 78 Crusaders. There were more than double that number.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
Thanks Tom.
I shall re-visit this matter shortly, as it would appear that at present I am wrong on all counts!!!
I shall re-visit this matter shortly, as it would appear that at present I am wrong on all counts!!!
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
OK.
It looks like I should have checked my notes before making that first post!
Here's what I have actually got....
Please feel free to correct where there are errors.
Remember it is A15 MkI C/S I'm trying to pinpoint.
67x A15MkI arrive with "Tiger" convoy, April 30th/May 1st 1941. How many, if any were close support?
I think another 5 arrive later in May, any C/S?
I think another 6 arrive in June, any C/S?
That's where the figure of 78 comes from.
Another 6 arrive in July on WS8x, any C/S?
Another 5 arrive in July on WS9, any C/S?
In August I think there were 20+ Crusaders on WS10, but not sure if MkI or MkII, or if any MkI C/S.
In September there were 95x MkI on WS10x, not sure if any were C/S.
The last 3 months in 1941 can wait until later, so as not to over burden you with info to check.
T. I. A.
David.
It looks like I should have checked my notes before making that first post!
Here's what I have actually got....
Please feel free to correct where there are errors.
Remember it is A15 MkI C/S I'm trying to pinpoint.
67x A15MkI arrive with "Tiger" convoy, April 30th/May 1st 1941. How many, if any were close support?
I think another 5 arrive later in May, any C/S?
I think another 6 arrive in June, any C/S?
That's where the figure of 78 comes from.
Another 6 arrive in July on WS8x, any C/S?
Another 5 arrive in July on WS9, any C/S?
In August I think there were 20+ Crusaders on WS10, but not sure if MkI or MkII, or if any MkI C/S.
In September there were 95x MkI on WS10x, not sure if any were C/S.
The last 3 months in 1941 can wait until later, so as not to over burden you with info to check.
T. I. A.
David.
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
No idea what you base your notes on but they bear little resemblance to documentary evidence held at the Public Records Office and elsewhere.
Suggest you throw away your notes and start again.
Recommend you consult Professor Julian Shales's critically acclaimed Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat body of work.
Suggest you throw away your notes and start again.
Recommend you consult Professor Julian Shales's critically acclaimed Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat body of work.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
Hi Tom.
Oh dear!
Most of that information came from another forum. I had no reason to doubt its veracity at the time.
Thanks for the heads up, although it comes as a blow, I am pleased to know that it's wrong, rather than be ignornt and think it's right.
I'm going to look up that book now.
Kind Regards,
David.
Oh dear!
Most of that information came from another forum. I had no reason to doubt its veracity at the time.
Thanks for the heads up, although it comes as a blow, I am pleased to know that it's wrong, rather than be ignornt and think it's right.
I'm going to look up that book now.
Kind Regards,
David.
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
Hi Tom.
I hope that you don't mean this one......
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Detailed-Fig ... ian+shales
It's £240!!!
I hope that you don't mean this one......
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Detailed-Fig ... ian+shales
It's £240!!!
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
The information you have is not entirely wrong. Elements are correct. Occasionally two or more elements relate in the correct manner (eg. delivery number with sailing with arrival date).
Given that most of the correct data is readily available on the internet its a surprise that your data is so inaccurate.
Starting from a blank piece of paper is the less confusing way to move forward rather than trying to fudge into better shape what you have.
Professor Shales's Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat series is a body of work spanning 16 books. The timeframe you are interested in is covered by the first four books of the series. Fortunately for you the fourth book was published this summer so all your needs are covered.
Given that most of the correct data is readily available on the internet its a surprise that your data is so inaccurate.
Starting from a blank piece of paper is the less confusing way to move forward rather than trying to fudge into better shape what you have.
Professor Shales's Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat series is a body of work spanning 16 books. The timeframe you are interested in is covered by the first four books of the series. Fortunately for you the fourth book was published this summer so all your needs are covered.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
"Given that most of the correct data is readily available on the internet its a surprise that your data is so inaccurate".
I must be using the wrong search engine!
I must be using the wrong search engine!
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
Do you really believe the problem is your search engine?
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
No, it was meant to be tongue in cheek.
But believe me when I say I have spent many hours looking.
Do you have any clues you would like to share? Because I'm not in the league that can Spend £25 on a book, much less £250!
But believe me when I say I have spent many hours looking.
Do you have any clues you would like to share? Because I'm not in the league that can Spend £25 on a book, much less £250!
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
Clues?
Professor Julian Shales has devoted his life to making accessible the truth about British combat operations of WW2. His critically acclaimed Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat series of books is based upon ten of thousands of hours of dedicated research and analysis of eyewitness accounts and combing through multiple archives around the globe to seek out unit documentation for the facts. The books tell the field evidence NOT the Downing Street Cabinet political crepe that has polluted your understanding for 75 years.
If you are unwilling to buy his books and to invest in your own learning then the best alternative is to get yourself off to the archives yourself. For tank numbers, types, users and locations the best start point is the library of the Tank Museum. Far better to spend your time reading the facts directly than wasting your effort reading the pollution on the internet.
Professor Julian Shales has devoted his life to making accessible the truth about British combat operations of WW2. His critically acclaimed Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat series of books is based upon ten of thousands of hours of dedicated research and analysis of eyewitness accounts and combing through multiple archives around the globe to seek out unit documentation for the facts. The books tell the field evidence NOT the Downing Street Cabinet political crepe that has polluted your understanding for 75 years.
If you are unwilling to buy his books and to invest in your own learning then the best alternative is to get yourself off to the archives yourself. For tank numbers, types, users and locations the best start point is the library of the Tank Museum. Far better to spend your time reading the facts directly than wasting your effort reading the pollution on the internet.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
Hi Tom.
"Clues". Yes, as you stated that " most of the correct data is readily available on the internet".
"Professor Julian Shales has devoted his life to making accessible the truth about British combat operations of WW2. His critically acclaimed Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat series of books is based upon ten of thousands of hours of dedicated research and analysis of eyewitness accounts and combing through multiple archives around the globe to seek out unit documentation for the facts." Wow! That's a lifetimes work. £250 sounds like a fair price now, if still way beyond my means.
"The books tell the field evidence NOT the Downing Street Cabinet political crepe that has polluted your understanding for 75 years". Is the political crepe the source of my errors do you think?
"If you are unwilling to buy his books and to invest in your own learning then the best alternative is to get yourself off to the archives yourself. For tank numbers, types, users and locations the best start point is the library of the Tank Museum." I'm unable, not unwilling. Funnily enough I went to the library at Bovington many years ago (late 1980s) with just that in mind, but the librarian wasn't able to produce anything other than books, most of which I had already read. It was an enjoyable if frustrating couple of days. Do they have more materiel available to the researcher nowadays?
"Far better to spend your time reading the facts directly than wasting your effort reading the pollution on the internet." I don't think that the internet is just pollution. You simply have to have the knowledge or experience to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Kind Regards,
David.
"Clues". Yes, as you stated that " most of the correct data is readily available on the internet".
"Professor Julian Shales has devoted his life to making accessible the truth about British combat operations of WW2. His critically acclaimed Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat series of books is based upon ten of thousands of hours of dedicated research and analysis of eyewitness accounts and combing through multiple archives around the globe to seek out unit documentation for the facts." Wow! That's a lifetimes work. £250 sounds like a fair price now, if still way beyond my means.
"The books tell the field evidence NOT the Downing Street Cabinet political crepe that has polluted your understanding for 75 years". Is the political crepe the source of my errors do you think?
"If you are unwilling to buy his books and to invest in your own learning then the best alternative is to get yourself off to the archives yourself. For tank numbers, types, users and locations the best start point is the library of the Tank Museum." I'm unable, not unwilling. Funnily enough I went to the library at Bovington many years ago (late 1980s) with just that in mind, but the librarian wasn't able to produce anything other than books, most of which I had already read. It was an enjoyable if frustrating couple of days. Do they have more materiel available to the researcher nowadays?
"Far better to spend your time reading the facts directly than wasting your effort reading the pollution on the internet." I don't think that the internet is just pollution. You simply have to have the knowledge or experience to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Kind Regards,
David.
Thanks. Dave.
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
Each of Professor Julian Shales's books retails at considerably less than the £250 you mention. Buy more than one from his Infantry, Artillery and Tank Combat series of books directly from the publisher and you will receive a further handsome discount.
Your fixation on the £250 price is perhaps a good indication of the level of your wheat & chaff separating skills.
The Tank Museum library holds duplicate copies of most of the RAC war diaries. Some of them hold documents not even available at the National Archives. They also hold the individual vehicle record cards which means you can trace the history of a specific tank. You can only do that at the Tank Museum.
I find it very difficult to believe that you do not know this already. All it takes is a phone call to the Tank Museum yourself. Or an email. Is that too difficult?
Or do you think the purpose of the internet is to get other people to do your research for you for free?
Your fixation on the £250 price is perhaps a good indication of the level of your wheat & chaff separating skills.
The Tank Museum library holds duplicate copies of most of the RAC war diaries. Some of them hold documents not even available at the National Archives. They also hold the individual vehicle record cards which means you can trace the history of a specific tank. You can only do that at the Tank Museum.
I find it very difficult to believe that you do not know this already. All it takes is a phone call to the Tank Museum yourself. Or an email. Is that too difficult?
Or do you think the purpose of the internet is to get other people to do your research for you for free?
Re: A15 Cruusader MkI
OK Tom.
I'm not sure why I seem to have upset you with my posts, and replies to yours. I have tried to keep things civil, but unless I am mistaken (and I could be) there seems to be an "edge" to your replies to me.
I mean no offence, and just want to learn. it's not like I'm trying to make a profit out of someone else's labours. And what's wrong with people sharing their knowledge? I will happily answer anyone's questions on this or any other forum, no strings attached, no questions asked.Even if I have spent many hours previously researching the topic.Surely information not shared is lost? And aren't forums designed for the sharing of knowledge?
I appreciate your input re the better research facilities at Bovington. As I appreciate all your constructive comments.
I don't know why my style of questioning seems so wrong to you. You appear to have posted almost exclusively in response to me and me alone.
Anyway, time to move forward, if you feel that you can, that would be great, and if not, you could always ignore me i guess.
Kind regards, sincerely meant.
David.
I'm not sure why I seem to have upset you with my posts, and replies to yours. I have tried to keep things civil, but unless I am mistaken (and I could be) there seems to be an "edge" to your replies to me.
I mean no offence, and just want to learn. it's not like I'm trying to make a profit out of someone else's labours. And what's wrong with people sharing their knowledge? I will happily answer anyone's questions on this or any other forum, no strings attached, no questions asked.Even if I have spent many hours previously researching the topic.Surely information not shared is lost? And aren't forums designed for the sharing of knowledge?
I appreciate your input re the better research facilities at Bovington. As I appreciate all your constructive comments.
I don't know why my style of questioning seems so wrong to you. You appear to have posted almost exclusively in response to me and me alone.
Anyway, time to move forward, if you feel that you can, that would be great, and if not, you could always ignore me i guess.
Kind regards, sincerely meant.
David.
Thanks. Dave.