Japan Betrayed Germany

[Iron_Bismarck]

Video Source:

Great Blunders of WWII: Hitler Declares War on America

Text Source:

Suvorov, Victor. Icebreaker.

Timeline:

25 Nov, 1936: Japan joins anti-Communist pact with Fascist Germany and Italy. Fascist forces (Germany, Italy, Japan) now encircle the Soviet Union in the West and East, as the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) between Fascists and Communists begins.

27 Sept, 1940: Japan joins Tri-Partite Pact with Fascist Germany and Italy. Mutual defense treaty stipulates all 3 signatories will go to war against any nation who attacks any single signatory. Germany, having by now lost the Battle of Britain and bogged down in the west, feared exposure to invasion by Soviet Union in the east. Germany prepares Operation Barbarossa as pre-emptive attack on Soviet Union which was beginning to mobilize its own massive army.

**April, 1941**: Japan signs 5-year non-aggression treaty with the Soviet Union. This political about face in Japan is the work of the Soviet spy Richard Sorge.

22 June, 1941: Germany launches pre-emptive strike against Soviets 14 days before USSR's own planned invasion of Western Europe (scheduled for 6 July).

**7 Dec, 1941**: Japan attacks Pearl Harbor. Japanese ambassador in Berlin immediately demands that Germany declare war on America, indicating that Japan would declare war on the Soviets in exchange.

11 Dec, 1941: Hitler, whose forces are bogged down in front of Moscow, declares war on America in hopes that Japan will attack the USSR from the east. But Japan never declares war on the Soviets, honoring its 5-year non-aggression pact with Stalin over against any agreements ever made with Germany.



Thus, Japan signed an anti-Communist pact with Fascist Europe in 1936...
and then made a deal with the Communists on the eve of Operation Barbarossa, never aiding Germany when it attacked Russia...
but then, hypocritically, demanding Germany aid Japan when it attacked America.



Afterwrit:

After having thought this through, I think Japan fought a war against the Soviets in 1939. This can be thought of as a "Far Eastern Front of the Spanish Civil War (1936-39)" which was being fought at the time, as Japan was allied with Fascist forces against Communism. However, they lost that war as I recall, and Hitler himself betrayed the anti-ComIntern pact shortly afterwards in August 1939 by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Perhaps Japan felt betrayed, and was just "getting Germany back" a year and a half later?

[lwd]

Well "Suvorov" is hardly a reliable source. For instance this is the first time I've seen anything saying the Japanese demanded the Germans declare war on the US. I also doubt that the Japanese offered a declaration of war with the Soviets in exchange for a German declaration of war on the US.

Some interesting insights can be gained from Suverovs but it's more through his misconceptions and misunderstandings than from the validity of his text.

[Carl Schwamberger]

This overall is a rather silly interpretaion of events. One key item left out is the taade embargo Britian, the US, and the Dutch, were organizing. earlier in the late summer of 1941 the Indonesian oil sales to Japan had been cut off, with the oil now sold to the US. Other stratigic minerals from Indonesia were also no longer to be sold to Japan.

Japans reserves for these items were very low or non existant. There was about a six month reserve of oil available to Japan for military operations. Industry was already find oil too expensive or too difficult to obtain.

There was only a tiny ammount of oil produced in China, perhaps 5% of Japans needs. Siberian oil reserves were in unkown locations, without a usefull number of oil wells, no refinerys, and little transport. It would have taken years to exploit te Siberian oil, or other minerals Japans industry needed imeadiatly. Even if Japan through some miraclous fairy dust had succeded in defeating the Soviet army, capturing all the ports intact, and cleared the Siberian railway to meet the Germans, it would have made little difference. Transporting the oil & minerals from Europe would have been difficult over the single Siberian railroad. And, Germany was critically short of those items also.

As it was defeating the Sovet Far Eastern Army was unlikely. Only a portion of it was sent west to fight the Germans, and after the reserves were mobilized its strength was increased by more than 50%.

Attacking the USSR to support German would have led to Japans economic & military collapse in late 1942 instead of 1945.

[Iron_Bismarck]

Well "Suvorov" is hardly a reliable source. For instance this is the first time I've seen anything saying the Japanese demanded the Germans declare war on the US. I also doubt that the Japanese offered a declaration of war with the Soviets in exchange for a German declaration of war on the US.

Some interesting insights can be gained from Suverovs but it's more through his misconceptions and misunderstandings than from the validity of his text.

According to the documentary Great Blunders of WWII: Hitler Declares War on America, the Japanese ambassador in Berlin demanded Hitler declare war on America immediately after news of the Pearl Harbor attacks broke. Hitler was initially wary of opening Germany up to another enemy, but the Japanese ambassador hinted that Japan would declare war on the USSR in exchange. With his armies now stalled in front of Moscow, Hitler declared war on America on 11 December (4 days after the attacks) expecting that Japan would follow suit against the Soviets.

Re: Suvorov, his claims are perfectly corroborated by the documentary Dead Men's Secrets: Stalin's Spy Ring which devotes 15-20 minutes on R. Sorge's mission in Tokyo as a Soviet Spy. According to that documentary, one of Sorge's contacts was a member of the Imperial family, a close relation of Emperor Hirohito himself, and it was this contact that was instrumental in redirecting Japanese aggression against America (& Britain). R. Sorge is a well documented personality.

[Iron_Bismarck]

This overall is a rather silly interpretaion of events. One key item left out is the taade embargo Britian, the US, and the Dutch, were organizing. earlier in the late summer of 1941 the Indonesian oil sales to Japan had been cut off, with the oil now sold to the US. Other stratigic minerals from Indonesia were also no longer to be sold to Japan.

Japans reserves for these items were very low or non existant. There was about a six month reserve of oil available to Japan for military operations. Industry was already find oil too expensive or too difficult to obtain.

There was only a tiny ammount of oil produced in China, perhaps 5% of Japans needs. Siberian oil reserves were in unkown locations, without a usefull number of oil wells, no refinerys, and little transport. It would have taken years to exploit te Siberian oil, or other minerals Japans industry needed imeadiatly. Even if Japan through some miraclous fairy dust had succeded in defeating the Soviet army, capturing all the ports intact, and cleared the Siberian railway to meet the Germans, it would have made little difference. Transporting the oil & minerals from Europe would have been difficult over the single Siberian railroad. And, Germany was critically short of those items also.

As it was defeating the Sovet Far Eastern Army was unlikely. Only a portion of it was sent west to fight the Germans, and after the reserves were mobilized its strength was increased by more than 50%.

Attacking the USSR to support German would have led to Japans economic & military collapse in late 1942 instead of 1945.

Japan fought the Soviets in 1939 and was badly beaten. This is probably true. This would make the Americans and British look like the "softer targets" and "easier marks", as it were.

The American trade embargo on critical petroleum supplies also played right into this, exascerbating anti-American/British feelings in Japan just as R. Sorge was pushing for Japan to attack America & Britain. (This certainly worked out quite well for Stalin;)

But we need to get the chronology, the timing, right. You said:

earlier in the late summer of 1941 the Indonesian oil sales to Japan had been cut off, with the oil now sold to the US. Other stratigic minerals from Indonesia were also no longer to be sold to Japan.

Late summer is August/September. This is 4-5 months after Japan "betrayed" (?) Germany by signing a non-aggression pact with Stalin -- that happened in April, 1941. In fact, according to Wikipedia, Japan had begun planning the Pearl Harbor attacks in January, 1941:

With the Hull note of November 26, 1941, Japan's leaders decided not to cancel the Pearl Harbor attack, in planning for 10 months [=since January] and in serious training for most of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

Thus, the timeline is this:

1941
Jan: Japan begins planning Pearl Harbor attacks. Training exercises soon follow
April: Japan secures its western front by signing a non-aggression pact with Stalin. Training for its attack eastwards against Pearl Harbor continues.
Late Summer: With tensions mounting, Britain/America place oil embargos on Japan

No one can deny that, by "late summer 1941", Britain was being strangled by German U-Boats torpedo-ing supply convoys from America, and Russia was "in mortal peril" (to quote Stalin) from Operation Barbarossa. Everybody knows that Churchill was desperate for America to enter the war. Everybody also knows that Roosevelt was desperate for America to enter the war as well. Everybody knows that Stalin was desperate for America to enter the war too. Thus, by placing an oil embargo on Japan, America & Britain successfully brought America into the war -- by provoking Japan to attack American & British bases in the Pacific.

All this while, Richard Sorge was pressuring a member of the Japanese Imperial Family to push for Japan to attack America.

It all worked perfectly, like a well-oiled machine.

• Stalin pressured Japan from within (via his spy Sorge)
• Roosevelt and Churchill pressured Japan from without (via trade embargos)
• Japan brought America -- the "arsenal of democracy" -- into the war
• America saved Churchill's Britain and Stalin's Russia from defeat
• Churchill, Roosevelt, and Stalin -- "the big three" -- were very happy

By rights, by rights, it is fairly clear what happened.

[Liam]

You've failed to point out that there was another country that also had a non-aggression pact with Russia - Germany. Why shouldn't the Japanese sign a similar pact with the Russians?

Additionally, Sorge was hardly in a position to 'pressure' Japan into doing anything. The man was an undercover agent posing as a German journalist and as such was hardly in a position where he could go around suggesting policy to the Japanese government! In hindsight, he was a very effective agent but you must bear in mind that Stalin regarded many of his reports with a high degree of scepticism - as he did the Red Orchestra material. He was hardly Stalin's trusted right-hand man in Tokyo.

As for America's entry into the war...well yes, the US made a major difference to the Allies war effort - in time. But neither Stalin not Churchill expected the American Army and Naval forces to be able to anything about Japanese or German aggression for several months at least, even if they weren't set back by the Japanese successes at Pearl Harbor, Wake, Malaya, the Phillipines, etc, etc. [/quote]

[lwd]

According to the documentary Great Blunders of WWII: Hitler Declares War on America, the Japanese ambassador in Berlin demanded Hitler declare war on America immediately after news of the Pearl Harbor attacks broke.

Perhaps it's just semantics but It doesn't seam reasonable to me that the Japanese ambassador would "demand" Germany declare war or that Hitler would acced to suhc a demand. For one thing the Japanese ambassador has no bases for his demand. Also form other sources I've read the Germans were given warning that Japan would attack in the Pacfic and indicated that they were at least strongly considering a declaration in such a case.

Re: Suvorov, his claims are perfectly corroborated by the documentary Dead Men's Secrets: Stalin's Spy Ring which devotes 15-20 minutes on R. Sorge's mission in Tokyo as a Soviet Spy. According to that documentary, one of Sorge's contacts was a member of the Imperial family, a close relation of Emperor Hirohito himself, and it was this contact that was instrumental in redirecting Japanese aggression against America (& Britain). ...

Suverov makes lots of claims. Some have a bases in historical fact. Japan's interest dictated an attack on the US and Britain.

[Iron_Bismarck]

You've failed to point out that there was another country that also had a non-aggression pact with Russia - Germany. Why shouldn't the Japanese sign a similar pact with the Russians?

Additionally, Sorge was hardly in a position to 'pressure' Japan into doing anything. The man was an undercover agent posing as a German journalist and as such was hardly in a position where he could go around suggesting policy to the Japanese government! In hindsight, he was a very effective agent but you must bear in mind that Stalin regarded many of his reports with a high degree of scepticism - as he did the Red Orchestra material. He was hardly Stalin's trusted right-hand man in Tokyo.

Wrong. According to the documentary Dead Men's Secrets: Stalin's Spy Ring, one of Sorge's contacts was a member of the Japanese Imperial Household and a close relative to Emperor Hirohito. I could replay the DVD and grab the exact name if you are interested.

As for America's entry into the war...well yes, the US made a major difference to the Allies war effort - in time. But neither Stalin not Churchill expected the American Army and Naval forces to be able to anything about Japanese or German aggression for several months at least, even if they weren't set back by the Japanese successes at Pearl Harbor, Wake, Malaya, the Phillipines, etc, etc.

The main advantage to Britain of US entry into the war against Germany was that, as a participant, America could now legally escort the supply convoys all the way to Britain. Previously, America only escorted them as far as Iceland, and that was already pushing the bounds for a "non-combatant".

Moreover, Nikita Kruschev -- who was a Soviet Premier, no less -- credits American SPAM with feeding the Red Army during WWII. American supplies made an immediate impact that kept the Allies afloat... long enough for America's military presence to tip the scales against the Axis.

[Iron_Bismarck]

According to the documentary Great Blunders of WWII: Hitler Declares War on America, the Japanese ambassador in Berlin demanded Hitler declare war on America immediately after news of the Pearl Harbor attacks broke.

Perhaps it's just semantics but It doesn't seam reasonable to me that the Japanese ambassador would "demand" Germany declare war or that Hitler would acced to suhc a demand. For one thing the Japanese ambassador has no bases for his demand. Also form other sources I've read the Germans were given warning that Japan would attack in the Pacfic and indicated that they were at least strongly considering a declaration in such a case.

I would like these sources, can you cite them?

Re: Suvorov, his claims are perfectly corroborated by the documentary Dead Men's Secrets: Stalin's Spy Ring which devotes 15-20 minutes on R. Sorge's mission in Tokyo as a Soviet Spy. According to that documentary, one of Sorge's contacts was a member of the Imperial family, a close relation of Emperor Hirohito himself, and it was this contact that was instrumental in redirecting Japanese aggression against America (& Britain). ...

Suverov makes lots of claims. Some have a bases in historical fact. Japan's interest dictated an attack on the US and Britain.

I think you are right on this point. I have since learned that:

(1) Hitler wanted Japan to attack America no later than March, 1941, at the so-called "Berlin Conferences". Why? Because by this time, America was for all intents and purposes in the war, against Germany, in everything but name. Hitler knew America would be in the war overtly by 1942 -- he was right, we may note. And Hitler knew that if Japan attacked America, Americans would react impulsively out of a desire for revenge. Therefore, an attack on USA by Japan would "distract" America from the European theatre of conflict. American naval assets, etc, would all flow into the Pacific to replace the ships lost at the planned Pearl Harbor, perhaps. At any rate, Hitler wanted Japan to attack America, and Ribbentrop was urging Japan to do so by July, 1941.

(2) Hitler declared war on America on 11 December -- thereby destroying the gains Japan's attack had accomplished (see above) -- because America effectively sank 3 German freighters on that day. One was the SS Rhein, and another was the SS Idarwold. Here is a link:

http://uwex.us/msrhein.htm

I have shown elsewhere that, just as Hitler was about to win the Battle of Britain, Churchill successfully goaded Hitler into an ill-planned attack on London -- thereby sparing the RAF (even at the expense of civilians). Likewise, here America successfully goaded Hitler into an ill-planned declaration of war. Hitler was a genius. Yet, he was still a commoner from a poor peasant background. And the more wily and sophisticated politicians of UK and USA knew how to needle him.

I am sure you know that Hitler always favored the attack, how he tried to redesign the German jets -- which could have turned the tide against allied bomber streams -- into bombers to support the army in attack, etc. Hitler was "attack attack attack". You know that. Well, Churchill and Roosevelt knew that too. And, knowing that, they played him.

At any rate, although the Japanese Ambassador, "Oishi??", did demand Hitler declare war on America on 7 Dec, Hitler deferred. Ribbentrop reminded him the Tripartite Pact didn't impose any obligations on Germany, b/c Japan had been the aggressor.

It is now my position that Hitler was goaded into declaring war on America -- and note, Hitler never declared war (except vs. America) b/c he believed it was "primitive" politics -- b/c he was goaded by America through the sinking/scuttling of 3 German freighters in one day (11 Dec).

Japan didn't "betray" Germany. Their ambassador may have demanded it, and their promises of reciprocal declarations of war vs. USSR may have helped assuage any last doubts Hitler had. But the real impetus behind Hitler 11 Dec. declaration of war vs. USA was impulsive rage -- over the sinking/scuttling of 3 German freighters by a supposedly "neutral" America.

I personally wonder if Hitler may not have declared war -- going against all his principals to do so -- because he was saying, in effect, "Geez, if we're at war already, let's at least make it legal, out in the open!!"

[nigelfe]

During the 1930s the Japanese Army was in favour of the 'Northern Option', ie seizing Siberia from Lake Baikal eastwards. The USSR-Japan border war of 1938-9 and Japan's total trouncing at Khalkin Gol (inferior, tactics, inferior equipment, inferior logistics, not to mention a numerically much smaller force) both on the ground and in the air convinced the Japanese that taking on the USSR was not a runner, the Southern Option was the only one. Hence the USSR-Japan Neutrality Pact of March 1941.

For the hypothesis that 'Japan betrayed Germany' to stand up, the first thing is to prove that Germany did not know about this pact.

Incidentally where did the one about the USSR planning to attack Western Europe in 1941 come from? Western Europe didn't exist, there was merely the Third Reich and its satraps and subject countries. And has been pointed out there was a non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR. What's the reliable source for a planned Soviet attack? Where was Zhukov (he's the only general Stalin would have trusted with such a venture).

[Liam]

You've failed to point out that there was another country that also had a non-aggression pact with Russia - Germany. Why shouldn't the Japanese sign a similar pact with the Russians?

Additionally, Sorge was hardly in a position to 'pressure' Japan into doing anything. The man was an undercover agent posing as a German journalist and as such was hardly in a position where he could go around suggesting policy to the Japanese government! In hindsight, he was a very effective agent but you must bear in mind that Stalin regarded many of his reports with a high degree of scepticism - as he did the Red Orchestra material. He was hardly Stalin's trusted right-hand man in Tokyo.

Wrong. According to the documentary Dead Men's Secrets: Stalin's Spy Ring, one of Sorge's contacts was a member of the Japanese Imperial Household and a close relative to Emperor Hirohito. I could replay the DVD and grab the exact name if you are interested.

As for America's entry into the war...well yes, the US made a major difference to the Allies war effort - in time. But neither Stalin not Churchill expected the American Army and Naval forces to be able to anything about Japanese or German aggression for several months at least, even if they weren't set back by the Japanese successes at Pearl Harbor, Wake, Malaya, the Phillipines, etc, etc.

The main advantage to Britain of US entry into the war against Germany was that, as a participant, America could now legally escort the supply convoys all the way to Britain. Previously, America only escorted them as far as Iceland, and that was already pushing the bounds for a "non-combatant".

Moreover, Nikita Kruschev -- who was a Soviet Premier, no less -- credits American SPAM with feeding the Red Army during WWII. American supplies made an immediate impact that kept the Allies afloat... long enough for America's military presence to tip the scales against the Axis.

Sorge may have had contacts with certain Japanese who may have had links to the royal family, but there is no evidence that he was able to influence Japanese foreign policy - and if he had attempted to do so his cover would have been blown sky-high.

He did have Ozaki Hozumi as a contact who developed a close relationship with the prime minister Fumimaro Konoye, but Sorge's principal role was to gather intelligence for the USSR, not to try and influence Japanese actions.

Think about how any commander views unconfirmed intelligence. Why is this information being presented? How do you explain that you have access to such material? Who are your contacts? Why should i accept this when i already have intelligence from our own services and our allies, the Germans?

[/quote]

[lwd]

...
I would like these sources, can you cite them?

I'll see what I can find but no promises. It's been a while and I don't remember where I read it.

...
I have shown elsewhere that, just as Hitler was about to win the Battle of Britain, Churchill successfully goaded Hitler into an ill-planned attack on London -- thereby sparing the RAF (even at the expense of civilians). Likewise, here America successfully goaded Hitler into an ill-planned declaration of war. Hitler was a genius.

Hitler was hardly a genius. If anything he was a master orater.
He was also nowhere near winning the BOB. If you look at the relative strengths of the LW and RAF the postion of the LW was either decaying or at best holding even for just about any period in excess of a week that you care to examine. The LW shifting to London as it's primary target may have been ill concieved but I wouldn't call it ill planned.

[lwd]

Found it quicker than I thought I wold.
A number of referances can be found on the following thread on the Axis histroy forum:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4f2522ed08
including the following by Larry D.:

28 Nov 41: German policy was to avoid war with the U.S. “until Germany was ready.” Ribbentrop met with Japanese Ambassador Oshima in Berlin this date and Oshima asked him what Germany would do if the war in the Pacific was extended to “countries which have been aiding Britain “? Ribbentrop replied: “Should Japan become engaged in a war against the United States, Germany, of course, would join the war immediately. There is absolutely no possibility of Germany’s entering into a separate peace with the United States under such circumstances. The Führer is determined on that point.”

From that meeting, the decisions, cables and instructions between Berlin and Tokyo began to fly back and forth. Oshima was instructed to get Germany’s promise in writing immediately, and the German Ambassador in Tokyo, General Ott, was told by the Japanese Foreign Minister, Yosuke Matsuoka, that things were about to come to a head in the Pacific because Japan would not abandon the Tripartite Pact as demanded by the United States.

During the night of 4/5 December, Ribbentrop pleaded his case to Hitler and the Führer gave his go-ahead for a declaration of war should hostilities break out in the Pacific between Japan and the Allies. This confirmed an earlier personal promise made by Hitler to Matsuoka that Germany would honor its commitments under the Tripartite Pact.

On the morning of 8 December, “Hitler ordered the German Navy to attack American ships whenever and wherever they may meet them.” He then met in conference at his headquarters to discuss the formalities of declaring war on the United States. The United States Congress declared war on Japan on the 8th, but not on Germany or Italy. The next day (9 December), Rippentrop met with Hitler who declared that it was imperative that Germany stand on the side of Japan, otherwise the Pact is dead. Besides, he said, American warships were attacking and had been attacking German ships (mainly U-boats) in the Atlantic. At the end of the meeting, Hitler ordered Rippentrop to return the passports of U.S. diplomatic personnel in Berlin. His mind was made up.

In addition to the reasons already stated, the author says, Hitler had clearly expressed to Ribbentrop and others that he was sick and tired of Roosevelt’s constant attacks on him personally and on Nazism in general, exhibited a growing hatred of America and Americans, grossly underestimated the war potential of the United States while at the same time grossly overestimated the fighting potential of Japan.

In all of the investigations done on this subject after the war through a careful review of hundreds of documents and countless interviews with the key players who were there, there was not one shred of evidence or even a hint that Hitler even raised the subject of a quid pro quo involving Japanese initiatives against the Soviet Union or even considered doing so. The Japanese were desperately afraid that this delicate subject would come up, and had briefed Oshima and others accordingly, but it never did.

[Source: Shirer, William L. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany. Volume Two – The Fall. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1966. pp.883-95].