srs,
I'm interested to know wich equippement did the AT regiments of infantry, armoured and corps units the british, canadian, poles did have in normandy. Specially the selfpropelled ones.
As far as I know: Infantry divs had a mix of 6pdr and 17 pdr. tracked.
armoured divs had some of the mounted in M!= chassis some of the M10 3in, others Achilles M10-17pdr...
Wich unit got wich type of antitank gun?
thanks
Eduard
equipement of the british Antitank regiments in Normandy
Moderator: John W. Howard
Re: equipement of the british Antitank regiments in Normandy
The SP batteries in the corps and armored division AT regiments were intended to be at least partly equipped with M10 SP carriages converted to carry 17-pdr guns, which became available at the beginning of May. “It was decided that this gun should be issued to complete 50% of unit S.P. equipment in all regiments in Second Army and in First Canadian Army, followed by issues to the Armoured Replacement Group and to the Polish Armoured Division. By 31st May twelve equipments had been issued or were in transit, to each Armoured Divisional and Corps Anti-Tank Regiment in the two Armies, and issues to the Armoured Replacement Group were in hand” (The National Archives (UK) (TNA) WO171/155 – Appendix ‘A’ to R.A. Branch Headquarters 21st Army Group War Diary May 1944). The result was that the corps AT regiment was initially equipped with 12 M-10, 12 M-10 17-pdr and 24 17-pdr. (towed).Eduard wrote:srs,
I'm interested to know wich equippement did the AT regiments of infantry, armoured and corps units the british, canadian, poles did have in normandy. Specially the selfpropelled ones.
As far as I know: Infantry divs had a mix of 6pdr and 17 pdr. tracked.
armoured divs had some of the mounted in M!= chassis some of the M10 3in, others Achilles M10-17pdr...
Wich unit got wich type of antitank gun?
thanks
Eduard
1 Corps
62nd Antitank Regiment RA (-)
246th and 247th Battery (17-pdr towed)
3rd British Infantry Division
20th Antitank Regiment RA
41st, 45th, 67th, and 101st Battery
Each of the antitank batteries in the assault divisions was equipped with eight 6-pdr and four M-10 3” SP guns. TNA WO171/155 – Appendix ‘A’ to R.A. Branch Headquarters 21st Army Group War Diary May 1944.
Attached: 245th Battery (17-pdr SP), 62nd Antitank Regiment RA
3rd Canadian Infantry Division
3rd Antitank Regiment RCA
4th, 52nd, 94th, and 105th (Composite) Battery
Unlike the other assault divisions 3rd Canadian apparently grouped all four of its M-10 troops under the 105th as a “Composite” battery. It appears that the 105th Battery’s two troops of towed 6-pdr guns arrived on D+1 after which the regiment returned to its normal organization. See TNA) WO171/155 – Appendix ‘A’ to R.A. Branch Headquarters 21st Army Group War Diary May 1944 and WO171/234 – Second Army Landing Tables
Attached: 248th Battery (M-10), 62nd Antitank Regiment RA
6th Airbourne Division
3rd and 4th Airlanding Antitank Battery RA. Each battery was augmented surplus to establishment with four 17-pdr antitank towed guns.
XXX Corps
73rd Antitank Regiment RA (-)
50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division
102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Antitank Regiment RA
99th, 107th, 288th, and 289th Battery
Attached: 198th and 234th Battery, 73rd Antitank Regiment RA (M-10 and M-10 17-pdr SP)
Sorry, I haven't found the breakdown of which batteries were equipped with what yet and I don't know what the other two batteries of 73rd AT Regiment were?
The establishments of anti tank regiments is somewhat compicated because about mid-war they changed from 'regimental establishments' to establishments for regt HQ and establishments for batteries with different equipment, including differently equipped troops within btys. This allowed a certain amount of 'mix and match'.
The standard ATk Regt HQ II/181/ was approved in late 1943, since this is a Chapter 2 unit it was divisional, associated with it were 12 gun btys, which replaced 16 gun btys, as follows:
II/186B - 3 tps 6-pdr
II/186A - 2 tps 6-pdr, 1 tp 17-pdr
I/188 - 3 tps M10
About a month later 2 more types were approved:
II/186 - 3 tps 17-pdr
II/186C - 2 tps 6-pdr, 1 tp 17-pdr, this was not an amendmet to 186A and its not clear what the differences were without comparing them.
These establishments were all amendments to earlier version with the same number , in the case of 186 and 186A this amendment included replacing 3-inch 26 cwt with 17-pdr.
A month later the Corps ATk Regt III/308 was approved with associated btys:
III/309 - 3 tps M10
III/310 - 3 tps 17-pdr, with tracked gun tractors, these were the converted Crusader tanks.
However at the same time the establishment for an Assault Corps ATk Regt was approved VIII/648. A couple of months later the following batteries were approved:
VIII/771 - 3 tps 17-pdr M10
VIII/772 - 2 tps 6-pdr, 1 tp 17-pdr M10
VIII/773 - 3 tps 17-pdr M10
Again you would need to compare 771 an 773 to understand the differences. As an assault unit the 6-pdr would have been towed by tracked vehicles.
The standard ATk Regt HQ II/181/ was approved in late 1943, since this is a Chapter 2 unit it was divisional, associated with it were 12 gun btys, which replaced 16 gun btys, as follows:
II/186B - 3 tps 6-pdr
II/186A - 2 tps 6-pdr, 1 tp 17-pdr
I/188 - 3 tps M10
About a month later 2 more types were approved:
II/186 - 3 tps 17-pdr
II/186C - 2 tps 6-pdr, 1 tp 17-pdr, this was not an amendmet to 186A and its not clear what the differences were without comparing them.
These establishments were all amendments to earlier version with the same number , in the case of 186 and 186A this amendment included replacing 3-inch 26 cwt with 17-pdr.
A month later the Corps ATk Regt III/308 was approved with associated btys:
III/309 - 3 tps M10
III/310 - 3 tps 17-pdr, with tracked gun tractors, these were the converted Crusader tanks.
However at the same time the establishment for an Assault Corps ATk Regt was approved VIII/648. A couple of months later the following batteries were approved:
VIII/771 - 3 tps 17-pdr M10
VIII/772 - 2 tps 6-pdr, 1 tp 17-pdr M10
VIII/773 - 3 tps 17-pdr M10
Again you would need to compare 771 an 773 to understand the differences. As an assault unit the 6-pdr would have been towed by tracked vehicles.
Re: equipement of the british Antitank regiments in Normandy
Addition : British 11th armoured division had two batteries of M-10 and one battery of 17 pdr while Guards and 7th armoured division had two batteries of M-10 and two battery of 17 pdr.
Re: equipement of the british Antitank regiments in Normandy
The combination of bty types in a regiment was not standard, just the types of battery. Regts in NW Europe had 4 btys.Kelvin wrote:Addition : British 11th armoured division had two batteries of M-10 and one battery of 17 pdr while Guards and 7th armoured division had two batteries of M-10 and two battery of 17 pdr.