Germans fighting Germans.....

[phylo_roadking]

All, while reading about Narvik this morning, something struck me; the French Foreign Legion is and always was a haven for the less re-integratable veterans of either side after major wars etc. .....does anyone know, or tell me how to find out, how many German recruits entered the Legion in the years following WWI, and who would still been in the Legion as of September 1939???

[John W. Howard]

Hello Phylo:
If I remember correctly there was a movement within Germany which was highly anti-French Foreign Legion during the inter-war years. They did everything possible to discourage German men from enlisting in the Legion. I have forgotten the details. There used to be a policy in the Legion which did not require one of its soldiers to fight his countrymen if he did not wish to do so, which might also have come into play before Narvik. I hope this helped in some way. Best wishes.

[phylo_roadking]

On the occasions that the Legion fought in the trenches in WWI they went buck-mad. I can guess why there was an anti-Legion movement ok! Im thinking that not many recruits would have joined the Legion knowing that in advance about the policy of non-combatancy, so in their own minds they'd have been ready. Similarly - did that policy survive the first day of the war???

[Reb]

Phylo

361st AFrika Regt (90 light) was full of ex legion types who may have been engaged at Bir Hakim - I'd have to double check (90 light was there)

Legionaires fought each other in Syria: Vichy vs. Free French.

cheers
Reb

[Rodger Herbst]

After the war over half the Legion was German, the French used to say "French is also spoken here". After the war the French needed men to guard thier colonies so the recruited in the POW cages.
The saying goes "the German Army didn't die in Europe,it died at Dien Bien Phu".

[sid guttridge]

Hi Phylo,

I am no great student of the FFL, but I have never heard that it went "buck-mad" when in the trenches in WWI. Have you any specific instances?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Rodger Herbst]

Sid, the book i have on the legion is "The French Foreign Legion-the inside story of the world famous fighting force" by John R. Young.
It has a short history of WW1 legion in France,but you know Sid regimental histories can be very misleading.

[Reb]

Sid

I was looking up Roger's book suggestion on Amazon (as a gift for a comrade who also served in Legion) and found a number of books on the Legion by my very own pal - Yves Debay. That rascal was a hoot to serve with and I'm glad to see him selling books.

Strange but true - he was on the same team with me and the guy for whom I was reseaching books - who served in 2me REP (topic of one of Yve's books) Maybe it is a smaller world than I realized!

That clown taught me to sing Wir Sailen Gegen England to annoy our British pals (who in turn taught me to sing "proud to be a Londoner")

Oddly enough - I kind of miss singing - Americans don't do it.

cheers
Reb

[phylo_roadking]

Reb, le 2me REP? Weren't they the ones involved in the Algerian coup attempt?

[Reb]

Phylo

I think (IIRC) it was 1 REP and were disbanded subsequently.

Algerie Francais! (just for history's sake!) My brother just sent me a copy of Battle of Algiers. I saw it NY years ago and was loudly cursed for cheering when the Paras marched into town. Hell - I didn't understand the politics of it, didn't care and just liked to see cool soldiers!

Frankly not so sure I've changed my mind now that I do have a clue.

cheers
Reb

[sid guttridge]

Hi Rodger,

It is true. Regimental and other unit and formation histories can be misleading. They are usually written by "insiders" or writers in the confidence of "insiders" and they tend to be somewhat sanitised. However, without some sort of evidence we can't make negative assuptions about them either.

Does Young's book give any indication that the Legion had a particular reputation for running amok in the trenches in WWI?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I am not a great fan of the FFL's disciplinary record, however tough they may be in combat, so I am not intent on making any great stand on their behalf. I just want to know if there is any substance to this suggestion.

[Rodger Herbst]

Sid, from what i gather is, when war was declared a lot of foreigners who were living in Paris wanted to help France, so the French enlisted them in the Foreign Legion. The legion sent over some NCOs and officers to train them and became part of the 3 regiments they formed. They wore the "pantaloon rouge" and you know what happened to the French in the early parts of the war. The 3 legion regiments sufferd tremendous casualties and in the end the survivors of the 3 regiments where consoladated into one,that one regiment was the only legion regiment in France for the rest of the war. They say it was a elite fighting force.
Sid, i don't want to throw cold water on these regiments but, to me, and i'm sure you agree these were not the kind of Foreign Legion regiments we were thinking of,i was thinking of regiments brought from Africa, not just cadres. Do you think you could take civilians, when war is declared and make them into first class fighting force? It's possible for trench warfare,but i don't know Sid ,you have any ideas?

[sid guttridge]

Hi Roger,

The Germans enlisted large numbers of untrained university students in two divisions in 1914. They were excellent potential junior leadership material taken into probably the best army into the world at the time. After brief training they were used to attack the remains of the old British regular army at Ypres in late 1914. They were fresh and had a great weight of numbers on their side. They were slaughtered. The massacre is known as the "Kindermord" in German historiograhy. It is reckoned that this did lasting damage to German junior leadership later in the war.

On an even larger scale, the slaughter of British volunteer soldiers on the first day of the Somme illustrates the same point. You cannot turn even the best, most enthusiastic raw material into efficient soldiers overnight.

I therefore doubt that the FFL regiments you describe being raised and shot to pieces in 1914 were any better.

Cheers,

Sid.

[joefraser]

hi sid,
I don't know much about ww1. However the tactics of over the top and run at the machine guns to get slaughtered suggests to me that no amount of training would have helped too much. Too me the generals etc. from that time were all incompetent idiots. Then again maybe that is the benefit of hindsight. The Germans learned from it for sure and adopted blitzkrieg tactics. The French with their maginot line showed that they learned nothing ( though if it had stretched round all the French border it may have been different). I am not quite sure what we Brits learned , but it didn't seem to work too well with the B.E.F.

[phylo_roadking]

The British Army learned the open-order infantry tactics introduced in 1937-8 into the Army Manual. Then in 1939 went into Northern France and promptly dug in again.....!

Regarding WWI and "elite units" and their survival times....if you read very closely you'll notice a trend - they earned their status in the defensive, such as French units at Verdun.

The British Army volunteer soldiers that were lost in such great numbers on the first day of the Somme had received exactly the same training as the conscripts did. In fact - they had received a LOT more training and constant drilling because they had actually been drilling as cohesive units since late 1913! They were the 36th (Ulster) Division that had been drilling under the auspices of the Ulster Volunteer Force to fight any proposed Home Rule in Ireland. On the outbreak of war they joined up en masse to demonstrate their loyalty to the Crown - just not his Majesty's government's policy lol. They had been kept out of the line until then, So you could say they had had over three years' training by that time....