well there are several questions related to this topic.
1) Was it worth it, nearly 200,000 dead for an elusive ideological victory
2) Are the Soviets to blame for the defeat of the AK?
3) In your view should've the German Chancellor even been invited to the comemorative celebrations in Warsaw last week?
60th anniversary of Warsaw Uprising
Moderator: John W. Howard
Re: 60th anniversary of Warsaw Uprising
1.) What is worth what? Was it worth, that more then 50.000.000 people died, because the Nazis wanted to rule the world (or at least Europe)?Orzel wrote:well there are several questions related to this topic.
1) Was it worth it, nearly 200,000 dead for an elusive ideological victory
2) Are the Soviets to blame for the defeat of the AK?
3) In your view should've the German Chancellor even been invited to the comemorative celebrations in Warsaw last week?
3.) I think it was the decission of the polish gouvernment, but so it was possible for Schröder to show, that the German politics between 1933-1945 is totaly differnet from the nowadays Germany.
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Die Dummheit des Menschen und das Universum sind unendlich; wobei ich mir beim Universum nicht ganz sicher bin! (Albert Einstein)
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Benoit Douville
- Contributor
- Posts: 360
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- Location: Montréal
Orzel,
What do you think? One thing is sure is the fact that the Soviets are fully responsible for the defeat of the A.K. (Armia Krajowa) They deliberately not move to help the A.K. from order of the megalomaniac Stalin and watched the defeat and the destruction of Warsaw by the Germans.
Was it worthed? Well, I found the Poles really braves and courageous to try an uprising against the Germans and they almost defeated them, in the first days of the Battles the Poles had the upper hand. The Poles should be respected for that forever.
Regards
What do you think? One thing is sure is the fact that the Soviets are fully responsible for the defeat of the A.K. (Armia Krajowa) They deliberately not move to help the A.K. from order of the megalomaniac Stalin and watched the defeat and the destruction of Warsaw by the Germans.
Was it worthed? Well, I found the Poles really braves and courageous to try an uprising against the Germans and they almost defeated them, in the first days of the Battles the Poles had the upper hand. The Poles should be respected for that forever.
Regards
hmm, i fully agree that AK should be respected for having the guts to stand up to the germans. however if the decision was left to me, with the benefit of hindsight of course, i dont think i would have authorised the uprising. it managed to bring about the total destruction of the city as well as elimination of an entire generation of intelligentsia in warsaw and poland as a whole. those young people could have been much more useful in rebuilding poland post wwii, and perhaps easying the process from Soviet domination to independence. in 1944 it was clear that the soviets would defeat the germans, it was also clear that they planned to dominate poland post wwii, strategically it would have been more beneficial for AK to stand by, and let our mutual enemies bleed eachother dry, a defeated germany and a weakened ussr is the only way for poland to ever survive.
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Dackel Staffel
- Associate
- Posts: 710
- Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:04 pm
Hi Orzel,
Maybe the AK hadn't an another choice. When the russians came in eastern poland, they arrested, killed or deported the members of the non-communist resistance. The AK fought until the end of the 40's. I've read a good book on that written by Alexandra Viatteau : "Stalin murders Poland, 1939-1947".
Whatever the AK men have done, it's the pride of Poland for ever.
A lot of people ignore the history of your country. They ignore that the poles had saved Wien in 1683 from a turkish invasion. Without the poles, can you imagine an Adolf Mohamed Mouloud bin Hilter chief of the mameluks
So long.
Maybe the AK hadn't an another choice. When the russians came in eastern poland, they arrested, killed or deported the members of the non-communist resistance. The AK fought until the end of the 40's. I've read a good book on that written by Alexandra Viatteau : "Stalin murders Poland, 1939-1947".
Whatever the AK men have done, it's the pride of Poland for ever.
A lot of people ignore the history of your country. They ignore that the poles had saved Wien in 1683 from a turkish invasion. Without the poles, can you imagine an Adolf Mohamed Mouloud bin Hilter chief of the mameluks
So long.
All we need it's a Dackel in each pocket
as far as answering my own last question, in an ideal world I do not believe that the german chancellor should have been invited to the commmeration events, for you Americans out there, this would be the equivalent of the President of the Sons of the Confederacy attending an NAACP rally or something to that effect. However as we know Europe is entering a new era and germany is becoming one Polands largest markets and trade partners. Therefore a gesture of peace was, hmm how to put it "diplomatic". I myself did watch the Chancellors speech, and found that it was well written, a key phrase I thought was "we germans now and remember who started the war, who the aggressor and who the victim was.." this got quite a bit of applause from the veterans and other attendees. However to hear german itself being spoken at such an event did leave a little bit of bad taste in mouth, whether I wanted it to or not. I cant help but as a Pole I feel a lot of resentment and at times even hate towards the germans. Keep in mind gentlemen for Poland the immediate consequences of the war are still being felt today. I myself am a product of the war as my family left poland due to its communist rule which was the direct result of WWII. But theres hope, perhaps now 60 years later, germany and poland will begin to work together, however never forgetting the horrible crimes the germans committed against us. As long as germans never try to push their 'aryan superiority" on us we should be ok, and this is not a joke, it is clearly known that Germans today feel a level of superiority towards poles, based primarily on the economic conditions of each country. To those people I have to say that at least Poland didnt base its gold reserves on smelted down gold teeth. So you germans are welcome to your money and wealth I hope it serves you well in place of a conscience, morality and the plain and simple fact that you are reviled throughout the world.
Orzel
Various Confederation organizations are allways reaching out to black organizations. One of our black members (his ancestor like many other blacks fought for the south) just walked a thousand miles at age 65 to publicize the fact that whites and blacks are both southerners.
Oddly enough - we were closer together during the War of Northern Aggression in some ways. The first big battle of the war (Bull Run) was fought on the farm of a free southern black man.
We held blacks as slaves before the war (as did Northerners) - they were willing tools in the hands of the yankee oppressors after the war. Plenty of room for hatred on both sides. And a big fat waste of time.
You'll find hating the Germans won't buy you much - hate and anger feel good and are both easy emotions to sustain - I find that trying to find out what makes my enemies tick does me more good. The question is always why would good men embrace a bad cause. Its easy to understand why bad men would - but you learn nothing from that.
cheers
(that unreconstructed) Reb
Various Confederation organizations are allways reaching out to black organizations. One of our black members (his ancestor like many other blacks fought for the south) just walked a thousand miles at age 65 to publicize the fact that whites and blacks are both southerners.
Oddly enough - we were closer together during the War of Northern Aggression in some ways. The first big battle of the war (Bull Run) was fought on the farm of a free southern black man.
We held blacks as slaves before the war (as did Northerners) - they were willing tools in the hands of the yankee oppressors after the war. Plenty of room for hatred on both sides. And a big fat waste of time.
You'll find hating the Germans won't buy you much - hate and anger feel good and are both easy emotions to sustain - I find that trying to find out what makes my enemies tick does me more good. The question is always why would good men embrace a bad cause. Its easy to understand why bad men would - but you learn nothing from that.
cheers
(that unreconstructed) Reb
Orzel
"I feel a lot of resentment and at times even hate towards the germans".
I used to have the same feelings as you do toward Polish people. Like you I had many reasons to feel the way I did.
I have aged a little since and have met many people who came from Poland and you know what ? they are just the same as I am. Most of them just talk a little funny, like I do The odd one carries a grudge but on the whole like me they are trying to make a living. Of course there are some Screwball Poles around as there are Nut case Germans as seen here on the Forum.
What it boils down to is - there was a horrible bloody war 60 years ago by bastards you and I had no control over. As is usual in those happenings when awful people have guns and given free reign, God help us all.
But some where it has to stop or surely it's going to happen again.
By the way read my posts, I make no excuses or lay blame, justification maybe. like when I said "in the East it was Tit for Tat".
Mainly I defended mine and my immediate comrades actions and conduct, that I saw and am qualified to talk about. The rest as I always stated was my opinion backed by facts and an open mind.
Peace,
Gerhard
P.S.
My new computer, paid partly by Germany, does not work. I wonder if that means anything.
"I feel a lot of resentment and at times even hate towards the germans".
I used to have the same feelings as you do toward Polish people. Like you I had many reasons to feel the way I did.
I have aged a little since and have met many people who came from Poland and you know what ? they are just the same as I am. Most of them just talk a little funny, like I do The odd one carries a grudge but on the whole like me they are trying to make a living. Of course there are some Screwball Poles around as there are Nut case Germans as seen here on the Forum.
What it boils down to is - there was a horrible bloody war 60 years ago by bastards you and I had no control over. As is usual in those happenings when awful people have guns and given free reign, God help us all.
But some where it has to stop or surely it's going to happen again.
By the way read my posts, I make no excuses or lay blame, justification maybe. like when I said "in the East it was Tit for Tat".
Mainly I defended mine and my immediate comrades actions and conduct, that I saw and am qualified to talk about. The rest as I always stated was my opinion backed by facts and an open mind.
Peace,
Gerhard
P.S.
My new computer, paid partly by Germany, does not work. I wonder if that means anything.
Gerhard
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derGespenst
- Associate
- Posts: 776
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:12 am
- Location: New York City
" hate and anger feel good and are both easy emotions to sustain "
The best example is Yougoslavia. Everybody was able to see the costs of such an approach - granny and papy were fighting so I'm fighting too.
Regarding the Warsaw Uprising from documents I saw a few years ago there was an SS division in transit in Warsaw the day of the uprising. It was too late to stop it. The balance of power was chnaged and the results...
I'm not sure this information is 100% correct.
Cheers
Ironrat
The best example is Yougoslavia. Everybody was able to see the costs of such an approach - granny and papy were fighting so I'm fighting too.
Regarding the Warsaw Uprising from documents I saw a few years ago there was an SS division in transit in Warsaw the day of the uprising. It was too late to stop it. The balance of power was chnaged and the results...
I'm not sure this information is 100% correct.
Cheers
Ironrat
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Guys,
I think that Cold War preconceptions have made it too easy to blame the Red Army for the failure of the Warsaw and Slovak Uprisings.
The Warsaw Uprising broke out when the Red Army had already advanced an enormous distance after the collapse of Army Group Centre and its spearheads were weakened and exhausted. I have no definitive answer, but I think it is seriously to be questioned whether the Red Army was capable of rescuing Warsaw, in August at least. This requires more research. However, I would be willing to guess that Red Army casualties trying to relieve Warsaw may have beebn as high as Polish Home Army casualties defending Warsaw.
Similarly, the Slovak Uprising broke out at the end of August prematurely (in the sense that joint Slovak-Soviet plans did not envision it happening until Krakow had been captured) and obliged the Red Army to launch a premature assault against the formidable Carpathian Mountains. It failed with something around ten times as many casualties as the Slovaks themselves suffered in their uprising. Yet the Red Army is sometimes blamed for the failure of the Slovak Uprising as well.
Until we know more about the condition of the Red Army in front of Warsaw, I would be inclined to suspend judgement on its degree of culpability for the failure of the Polish Home Army's uprising in the city.
Cheers,
Sid.
I think that Cold War preconceptions have made it too easy to blame the Red Army for the failure of the Warsaw and Slovak Uprisings.
The Warsaw Uprising broke out when the Red Army had already advanced an enormous distance after the collapse of Army Group Centre and its spearheads were weakened and exhausted. I have no definitive answer, but I think it is seriously to be questioned whether the Red Army was capable of rescuing Warsaw, in August at least. This requires more research. However, I would be willing to guess that Red Army casualties trying to relieve Warsaw may have beebn as high as Polish Home Army casualties defending Warsaw.
Similarly, the Slovak Uprising broke out at the end of August prematurely (in the sense that joint Slovak-Soviet plans did not envision it happening until Krakow had been captured) and obliged the Red Army to launch a premature assault against the formidable Carpathian Mountains. It failed with something around ten times as many casualties as the Slovaks themselves suffered in their uprising. Yet the Red Army is sometimes blamed for the failure of the Slovak Uprising as well.
Until we know more about the condition of the Red Army in front of Warsaw, I would be inclined to suspend judgement on its degree of culpability for the failure of the Polish Home Army's uprising in the city.
Cheers,
Sid.