Adolf Galland's Diamonds

[Paddy Keating]

The rest of the article can be found at http://www.feldpost.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=705.

PK

[Wolery]

The pics don't show

[Paddy Keating]

I can see them. You have to wait a bit for them to load.

PK

[Paddy Keating]

Deleted.

PK

[Paddy Keating]

Test

[Dietrich Maerz]

B Stuck .935 Brillanten by Klein - Real or Fake?

Thanks for proving my point made in the Grand Cross cross! Everybody with decent capability of comparing pictures can see that this set is not even close to an original 2. Type B-Set from Klein.

For those of us who have studied both types of this grade there are so many fingerprints missing (even on the obverse) that it not even funny.


In the late 50 up to the end of the sixties every decent selling catalogue in Germany had the 'Diamanten" (Klietmann, Sedlatzek, Schiffer, ...) but that dies not mean that they were 'perfect replicas'.


By the way, I have the alleged Galland Diamanten in my book. I certainly don't know whether they are really Gallands piece, but I am very confident (and not only me) that they are a first model Godet - and not only because of the L/50 stamp...


The table from the Ordensmuseum is also a little bit misleading in such that there are more sets than the ones listed. One has to add the ones from Klessheim.


Dietrich

[Paddy Keating]

B Stuck .935 Brillanten by Klein - Real or Fake?

Thanks for proving my point made in the Grand Cross cross! Everybody with decent capability of comparing pictures can see that this set is not even close to an original 2. Type B-Set from Klein.

For those of us who have studied both types of this grade there are so many fingerprints missing (even on the obverse) that it not even funny.

I wasn't suggesting that it was genuine, as anyone with any appreciation of irony would understand from the wording of the photo caption.

I can't see "Diamenten" on any of the certificates or in any of the literature. Was this a slang term for them?

By the way, I have the alleged Galland Diamanten in my book. I certainly don't know whether they are really Gallands piece, but I am very confident (and not only me) that they are a first model Godet - and not only because of the L/50 stamp...

A first model Godet with an L/50 stamp? I wonder which one of the four sets Galland described receiving during the war this set was. The first one, which incurred Göring's disapproval? Or one of the other three? Was it a set Galland purchased, do you think? If so, why spend so much money having a set made in 1953?

The table from the Ordensmuseum is also a little bit misleading in such that there are more sets than the ones listed. One has to add the ones from Klessheim.

I think the DOM's table was referring to awarded pieces. Now, what do you think of the REVUE article?

PK

[Jason Pipes]

I wasn't suggesting that it was genuine, as anyone with any appreciation of irony would understand from the wording of the photo caption.

Please keep the tone civil! It's clear you two disagree. Don't start making digs at one another.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Sorry for not getting the irony! I don't think it was mentioned at such anyway.

Now, what do you think of the REVUE article?

I clearly think (actual I know since I'm fluid in German) that the Revue article does NOT say that Galland commissioned any Diamanten (see! I can spell it right!). It says that there was some interest in it, not more, not less.

There are a lot more interesting things in that article which I used in the book with the expressive permission of the Revue Verlag. What does "all rights reserve" mean anyway?


As I said above: I do not know whether the L/50 I show is Gallands. I can only say that they are of the 1. Type IMHO and in the opinion of other collectors.

Dietrich

[Paddy Keating]

Please refer to Jason Pipes' post above. Stop trolling and baiting me. Thanks.

PK

[phylo_roadking]

Jason's requirement is that concerns such as those are communicated upwards by PM, not on the open forum.

[Paddy Keating]

I just sent a PM. I have also removed the article because it offended Dietrich Maerz.

PK

[Dietrich Maerz]

There' s no friction and I was not offended. The article is old and was even posted at WAF (where it still is) under Dave Kanes name.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... p?t=145103

I think it must be allowed in a discussion forum for the benefit of the other readers to point out:

- that the B-Types are blatant fakes (Irony or not)
- that the translation of the German text is wrong.

That is neither baiting, trolling nor anything else with bad intention.

Dietrich

[Jason Pipes]

Please refer to Jason Pipes' post above. Stop trolling and baiting me. Thanks.

I don't think his post you reference was an attempt to bait.

[Paddy Keating]

What I posted was not quite the same as the article posted by Dave Kane on the WAF.

The translation of the German text was as follows:

The article states: A prospective customer has already appeared: the former General der Jagdflieger Galland, who has been living in Argentina for some time. The inquiry came from a Polizei-Wachtmeister, on behalf of Dr. Jur. Galland of Essen, a brother of the ex-General. The Polizei-Wachtmeister is himself a highly-decorated fighter pilot and one of Knoth’s best customers. From his meagre police salary, he laboriously saves money for his medal collection. For him, these are not just medals but symbols of history.

I don't think this translation is inaccurate, even though it is unclear as to whether Galland frère made the enquiry himself or through a third party. It does state that General Galland was interested in acquiring a set of these Brillanten. This would indicate that Adolf Galland did not have a set to wear when he was in Argentina.

As I said in the article, Galland stated that he had received a set from Hitler. Göring had taken this set away and, presumably, had it copied. Göring gave both sets back to Galland. Hitler subsequently had another set made for Galland, which was destroyed in a bombing raid. Hitler then had a replacement set made. So, Galland had three sets, including the ones condemned as inferior by Hermann Göring.



Dietrich - and some other people - are convinced that the set in Steve Wolfe's possession is a genuine Godet set of Brillianten, complete with L/50 mark, but Dietrich does say that there is no way of knowing if they belonged to Adolf Galland. If Galland were still in possession of three sets of Brillanten in 1953, why have his brother enquire about having a fourth set made at considerable expense in 1953? Why not simply have the 'inferior' set sent out to Buenos Aires? With his connections there, Galland could have had them brought over in the Argentine diplomatic bag if he was worried about security. If he wanted a posh set, he apparently had two to choose from.

I believe that there were two types of Klein Brillanten: the A Type in platinum and the B Type in silver. The 935-marked set I showed at the head of the revised piece was an out-and-out fake of the B Type, produced quite recently in the UK, according to my information. It should have been quite obvious that by captioning it "Real or Fake?", I was not suggesting it was real.

Regarding the question of whether or not Klein produced identical copies of their wartime pieces, I am far from being the only person to suspect this. On Page 424 of his book, Gordon Williamson states: ...believed to show a post-war piece manufactured by the original maker in an identical manner to their wartime counterparts.. Of course, there is an error involving the post-war set from the late Bill Stump, which is one of the post-war replicas produced by Klein with slightly different detailing to wartime originals. Gordon has always acknowledged this. Mistakes have a habit of creeping into books. But this should not detract from the fairly subtle reference he makes to the alleged production of identical copies for questionable purposes.

Any discussion of this question is bound to provoke negative reactions in some quarters because there is a lot of money involved. It is rather like the question mark hanging over Godet EL and ELS. The internet was initially seen by some dealers as a useful marketing tool and a couple of the major websites came into being because of this. But it turned out to be a two-edged sword as information began to flow freely as never before, resulting in the exposure of several big names amongst dealers and reference work authors as crooks who had been conning people for years and decades. This caused fury amongst collectors who had been conned but chose denial rather than demanding refunds. However, some did demand refunds. The webmasters running the two websites in question censored and banned right, left and centre. For a time, shooting the messengers worked...until some disgruntled people set up an alternative website. This was MCF. No matter what MCF has now become, it served a very useful purpose at the time. It ended the hegemony of The Big Two.

But it did not end the shenanigans. As well as the attempt to introduce the so-called "Rounder" RK to the legitimate market, there have been attempts to rehabilitate items previously written off as fakes, like the "Otto Schickle Condor Legion Tank Badge". Originals of a similar design certainly existed, as period photos show, but the badges hailed as examples of this other design had long been dismissed by older collectors as fakes or, possibly, post-war veterans' association pieces. The same names often crop up amongst the prime movers. It all boils down to money in the end. It is probably easier to try to 'rehabilitate' fakes than to introduce new 'variations' to an increasingly cynical target market.

I have no beef with Dietrich Maerz. He is perfectly entitled to his opinions. But I will not be adding any flawed S&L RK or Godet EL/ELS to my shopping list anytime soon. Maybe his book will succeed in changing my mind. I hope so. But $15k is a lot of money to spend on something that might turn out to be a fishing weight. As it is, there are very few people out there with the wherewithal to buy expensive things. I know from trying to sell expensive things! So why 'invest' in something you might never be able to sell? And since we're asking questions, why has nobody bought any of the ELSmB offered by Wolfe-Hardin? One would imagine that one of the wealthy Hollywood or music business types who collect Third Reich stuff and who buy from W-H, amongst other people, would jump at the chance to own Adolf Galland's ELSmB. Too expensive? The price is small change for some of these people.

Could it be that they and their buyers have been deterred by all the rumours about master jewellers making these things to order? Or the original firms making perfect copies of their wartime products? Maybe. Maybe Dietrich Maerz's book will change their minds too and those ELSmB shown year after year in that showcase will find new homes.

Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if all these rumours were shown to be just that: rumours. The trouble is that I knew and occasionally worked for some people in London who handled some of these top end forgeries. I saw a lot of Godet awards produced from suitcases with nudges and winks. Not that this was extraordinary: dealers in British and miscellaneous orders and decorations also sold restrikes as originals. That includes at least one top dealer with a row of royal warrants. The same dealer also bought stolen gear...knowingly. Some of you people don't know the half of it. I do what I can to "atone" for my misspent youth and I have to dodge a lot or arrows as a result. But if I can save a few people from being stung, it's worth it.

PK