German Soldiers.......worst Movie portrayal.

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T.W.A.T.
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Post by T.W.A.T. »

Achilles wrote:
What books do you mean? Not all are über-warriors but most.
Have you ever been in combat? I thought not.

So who are you to say what is realistic or not?

You need to grow up and stop fantasising about how people really act in combat...that includes your German "heroes".
Everybody who has seen Band of... must say that it is @#% (i think).
Is that because the Germans lose - that's because they did in reality. READ MY LIPS - THE GERMANS LOST. BEATEN. VANQUISHED. COMPLETELY.
June 1944, about a company of SS men are having a break in the middle of a field with one guard 10m away of the rest of the group posing as a guard, last night they had a fight at the same place against US paras. One US para platoon runs some hundred meters in open area and with out anyone noticing and executes every SS man there is...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH....
REALISTIC???? I DOUBT IT.
US Reg CO, Batallion Co, and intel officer stand proud 50m of the river, behind the river are the germans... are they suicidal or something?????
A grenade explodes some 2m of two US paras which are running, the ground is rocky... they survive intact... want me to continue?????????????

The series is full of situations where stupid germans get their asses kicked by few GREAT and SUPERIOR US men
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Post by Debica Fusilier »

The thing is, it happend =\

For all we know, they could have been one of those crappy green "alarm companies" or somesuch.

If I understood correctly, the sentry scene, what happend was the german grabbed his rifle, but Winters quickly ducked, tossed a grenade, pulled the pin and what, and them, remembered it still had the tape on it. So before the German could toss one, he popped up and shot him. Then onto the others.

The Germans were in crappy positions - open field, laying/sitting down, wearing bulky as hell overcoats. The men that came up on them were seasoned veterans, with attack-mode on, and two .30 Caliber MG's, plus a ton of other weapons, I suppose sheer suprise/shock came over them.

But for all I know, I could have my head in my ass and missed something. I honestly thing BoB was a great series.
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Post by Achilles »

June 1944, about a company of SS men are having a break in the middle of a field with one guard 10m away of the rest of the group posing as a guard, last night they had a fight at the same place against US paras. One US para platoon runs some hundred meters in open area and with out anyone noticing and executes every SS man there is...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH....
REALISTIC???? I DOUBT IT.
Dear Twat (well picked name I must say),

Have YOU ever been shot at? You laying there having your breakfast and all of a sudden firing breaks out as close proximity. You'd run for cover...but I suppose you'd get up and win the Knights Cross...

Anyway....

i) it wasn't June 1944
ii) the incident happened
iii) it wasn't the same unit that had been in combat the night before
iv) the SS unit was forming up behind a dike
vi) the Germans had failed to put out security as they didn't seem to be aware of the proximity of the enemy
v) the Germans weren't executed

Incidentally read any other Allied memoir - the Germans were known for putting out outposts at night and withdrawing them in the morning - this was used by certain Allied units to infiltrate in the moring - read something like Battalion by Alastair Borthwick. His battalion used this trait a number of times.
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T.W.A.T.
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Post by T.W.A.T. »

Achilles wrote:
Dear Twat (well picked name I must say),

Have YOU ever been shot at? You laying there having your breakfast and all of a sudden firing breaks out as close proximity. You'd run for cover...but I suppose you'd get up and win the Knights Cross...

Anyway....

i) it wasn't June 1944
ii) the incident happened
iii) it wasn't the same unit that had been in combat the night before
iv) the SS unit was forming up behind a dike
vi) the Germans had failed to put out security as they didn't seem to be aware of the proximity of the enemy
v) the Germans weren't executed

Incidentally read any other Allied memoir - the Germans were known for putting out outposts at night and withdrawing them in the morning - this was used by certain Allied units to infiltrate in the moring - read something like Battalion by Alastair Borthwick. His battalion used this trait a number of times.
No I haven't been shot at(better go and knock some wood).
It wasn't june -44? sorry about that, but the point was that there were complete allied air superiority in 1944... You don't take sun baths in the middle of a field when enemy has air superiority!
I didn't make the claim that it didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure that it didn't happen like it was portraited in the TV series... :?
The germans in BoB and in many other series and films don't match the picture given by my grandfather or the fact that they managed to fight almost 6 years against the rest of the world, they can't shoot, they can't fight...
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Post by FJR6 »

Hello,
guys, don't worry, BoB is just another flag-waving series which had lots of great potential, but which was blown, because the good guys had to look perfect on screen. The errors and inaccuracies in the book on which the series was based were truly transferred into the episodes, so it cannot be better than SPR, for example.
Wherever Germans had to be used, they were shown as unprofessional dumbshots who were used as cannon fodder for the American Sturminators. No need to discuss this with people who are too blind to see the historical facts, let them hang out at the Wild Bill Guarnere forum where the red-blooded heroes meet.
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Post by Achilles »

Dear, oh dear....have you pair of starry eyed, Germanic hero worshippers actually watched BoB? I beleive in it a couple of the characters actually say that certain German troops were tough fighters...FJ in Carentan being one. Who says they can't fight or shoot? Or are you expecting Paul Carrell type images with heroic, outnumbered Germans mowing down wave after wave of dumb Allied troops.

You go and research the quality of German trrops faced by 82nd Airborne in 1944-45...the only top quality Germans they fought were FJR6. By 1944 even the SS & Panzer Divisions had large amount of inexperienced personnel...the run of the mill infantry units were below the quality of the Allied forces. The fact they they still defended well says alot about their morale. But as I'm sure you know, defending is much easier than attacking and requires alot less training, leadership and coordination.

You say the Germans are shown running away...of course you believe German FJ NEVER ran away. You believe they are running away out of cowardice...I say they are running just to save their lives. Only idiots and FJ-Wannabes would stand there trading shots.

My point about being shot at is...if you've never been in combat how the **** do you know how people really react...apart from images those those self-glorfication books you read give you. When you move (including withdrawing) you don't move slowly...you ****ing run, faster than you've ever have before. Your body makes you run even if you don't want to...you can't feel your legs as the adrenalin and fear kicks in. But I assure you - you keep ****ing running.

But what about the Americans in the Market Garden episode? They ran away without so much as inflicting a casualty on the Germans. Is this unrealistic? As for the sunbathing...you really are now really living up to your name. What about the execution of German PoWs? Are the Germans shown executing PoWs? No. So tell me which side is shown in the worse light here?

Mr. FJ-Wannabe...I don't for one minute think the likes of SPR are realistic. The combat ranges in that film were foreshortened even more than they are in BoB. But it isn't a great cinematic event seeing little dots running around hundreds of yards away. Thin Red Line (in the initial attack on the hill) is one of the more realistic things combat scenes I've seen...they didn't shorten the ranges at all. But was it as cinematically 'entertaining' as SPR? No doubt if they had used the same techniques in SPR\BoB you'd be here moaning that the Germans weren't portrayed on screen apart from when they were dead or PoWs.

Have you EVER read any books from the Allied viewpoint? You find the same tales of gallantry and tactical brilliance in there as you do in any book from the German view point.

It's the like of Mr FJ-Wannabe-Fantasist who should be looking at the 'historical facts'.
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Post by FJR6 »

My dear Achill,
yes, I think, I have watched BoB long enough to come to the conclusion that the series is not better than the book and that there were too many inaccuracies to make it not much better than an average episode of the Combat-Series.
It is clear that the 101st paratroopers as protagonists are the heroes of the series and if you compare them to their German movied adversaries, you, too, will come to the conclusion that the Germans are portrayed as sub-standard, even those who are labelled as tough fighters in the movie.

Do you remember the "heavily defended" flak position in the second episode? The German defence was almost nonexistent and resistance was tame as well. A bit more Paul Carell would have done great here, don't you think?
Do you remember the German paratropers in episode three? The fighting for Carentan was a laugh if you watch the series. I know quite a few FJR6 men who were there and they actually laughed at the episode, although it was bad enough to make one puke.
So much for the historical accuracy, I would say.

One thing is undisputed if you are objective: the quality of the average German infantryman was much better than the quality of the average American infantryman. The Germans had a healthy respect for the British, ANZACs and Canadians, but not for the Americans. Sorry to say that, but tactically the Germans were almost always superior. What gave the Allies the decisive edge was the massive support by armour, artillery and aircraft which the German industry simply could not match. They, too, had another advantage by being able to vastly outnumber the Germans.
Every German soldier who fought the Americans will tell you that the Americans would recon and when meeting resistance would withdraw and call upon artillery and airstrikes. Even small pockets of resistance were bombed out that way.

I do not agree that defending is much easier than attacking. As King Frederick the Great of Prussia already knew: he who defends everything, defends nothing at all. Defence requires a great effort of coordination, logistics and manpower, even more than the attack. Great tacticians always preferred to attack, because they felt it is the easier thing to do, just check your history book.

By the way, I did not say that Fallschirmjäger never ran away. Running away in combat is not necessarily a matter of cowardice, but as every experienced infantryman will be able to tell you, it is much safer to stand fast and shoot back than to run away.
There are enough examples where it was suicidal to make a stand with hand-weapons against armoured units and where the quick retreat was the only way of saving lives.
Yes, I have been shot at before and it is no difference, if the round coming for you is American or Bosnian or Somali or Afghan or whatever. The sound and the feeling is the same, trust me.

As for the bad light, the series pretty much only shows this sinister Captain Spear, the guy who shoots German POWs out of hand, the guy who sneaks up on a sentry and tells some GI strage things or Captain Sobel who talks to cattle...

If you go for cinematic entertainment value, you might as well watch Cross of Iron (part one or two doesn't matter) or the forever-classic High Noon, but is that the topic of this thread?
I am looking for other things in a movie and hearing this Edelweiss-bull in the Carentan-episode is just one example of how much the potential of the series was blown.
It is the same episode where the crack German paratroopers are behaving like a bunch of you-know-whats in the city and in the climatic battle at the end of the episode where German ground fighting tactics were nonexistent while the brave Yank kills the tank in a brave solo act without so much as one rund coming even near him.
Once more, they could have made something really good from a historical point of view: they spent a lot of money for correct uniforms and equipment, but sacrificed historical accuracy for the sake of drama and sentiment.

Having read enough crap from the Allied point of view in books, I'm fed up with it already and don't need more of it, thank you.
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Post by Achilles »

Do you remember the "heavily defended" flak position in the second episode? The German defence was almost nonexistent and resistance was tame as well. A bit more Paul Carell would have done great here, don't you think?
It wasn't a 'heavily defended flak' Flak position...it was an artillery position. Name me an army where gunners, taken by surprise, would be able to withstand an assault by well trained (I hate using such trite terms as elite and crack) infantrymen. There isn't one.
Do you remember the German paratropers in episode three? The fighting for Carentan was a laugh if you watch the series. I know quite a few FJR6 men who were there and they actually laughed at the episode, although it was bad enough to make one puke.
So much for the historical accuracy, I would say.
If I'm not wrong your FJR6 people lost Carentan did they not? Surely if they were 'crack' they would not have done so?
One thing is undisputed if you are objective: the quality of the average German infantryman was much better than the quality of the average American infantryman. The Germans had a healthy respect for the British, ANZACs and Canadians, but not for the Americans. Sorry to say that, but tactically the Germans were almost always superior. What gave the Allies the decisive edge was the massive support by armour, artillery and aircraft which the German industry simply could not match. They, too, had another advantage by being able to vastly outnumber the Germans.
How the can you say the Germans were always tactically superior? There was such a wide range of quality of German units to say this is naive to say the least. Of course German victories earlier in the war had nothing to do with attacking unprepared countries with massive support by armour and aircraft. The Allies can't be held responsible for the inability of the Germans to get their act together. Slagging off American troops doesn't bother me...I'm British. In fact after serving along side American troops I tend to agree with you - All The Gear, No ****ing Idea. Getting back to WW2 the difference in quality between the armies (I'm talking infantry here) is far closer than you believe...depends what unit, what force multipliers in effect, tactical situation etc, etc
Every German soldier who fought the Americans will tell you that the Americans would recon and when meeting resistance would withdraw and call upon artillery and airstrikes. Even small pockets of resistance were bombed out that way.
The Germans didn't do this...because they didn't have the capablities to do so. Firepower wins wars and fire fights - not some romantic nonsense about military skill, honour, tactical ability. You can have all the tactical ability in the world but it's of no use when your enemy blows half your superbly well trained force away in the first engagement. You tactical ability may well win you the day...what you going to do the day after and the day after that. Firepower...that's the key to winning modern war. Like it or not.
I do not agree that defending is much easier than attacking. As King Frederick the Great of Prussia already knew: he who defends everything, defends nothing at all. Defence requires a great effort of coordination, logistics and manpower, even more than the attack. Great tacticians always preferred to attack, because they felt it is the easier thing to do, just check your history book.
Now we're being silly...I was of of course talking tactically and you are quoting strategic theories. To say that defending is more difficuklt than attacking is an absolute joke. As long as morale is high even half trained conscripts can put up a decent fight from static positions. Put those same troops into an attack and watch it fall to pieces shortly after it starts. Assaults are far, far harder to control and co-ordinate even with well trained troops. Given that 95% of modern assaults are conducted at night this is more true to day than ever. Anyone who says otherwise has obviously never experienced it.
Having read enough crap from the Allied point of view in books, I'm fed up with it already and don't need more of it, thank you.
I agree with books like Band of Brothers...read the book I mentioned, "Battalion".
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You are all wrong!!!

Post by infantryscout »

Battle of the Bulge with Henry Fonda is the worst!!!
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Post by Sebastian Pye »

thank you for that excellent post FJR6

achilles, you dont have a clue

My favourite scene i think in BoB is after they have overrun those guns (which seem to be manned by mentally disabled germans)and one of them run out on the open field to get a luger pistol from a dead german.
Theres like a whole battalion firing at him from short distance and noone hits him. Maybe youre saying "well perhaps they were firing at something else". What would that be? there is no other visible target, so when a guy runs out of a trench into a field with no cover, dont you think every single german in the area would shoot at him?
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Post by Achilles »

Sebastian,

Thanks for that insight into real combat.

I won't even bother ask you for your experiences of war seeing as you're ****ing Swedish. Actually I can understand you ebing interested in other countries military achievements seeing as yours doesn't hasn't actually got any.

When you've ****ing been there and ****ing done it then you can come back and ****ing tell me what combat is about. Until then STFU and stop preaching your arm chair general ****@#%.

And if I sound mightly pissed off, I am. Listening to armchair 'warriors' talking about things they have no idea of.

BoB isn't supposed to be (and isn't) a true accurate depiction of war. Your problem is that it shows your Germanic warriors in a light your fantasies tell you is untrue. Cross of Iron is no more realistic (in fact less so) but I assume you Germanic-hero-worshipping types think it's fantastic and accurate. No doubt there are Soviet veterans who have watched it and piss themselves laughing at it's inaccuracies.
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Interesting dialog

Post by fredrich »

It seems like there is always one person in a thread that plays the protagonist (goon, troll, etc) and just babbles bullshit to elicit responses. The first few posts from Achilles seemed to be just that, but that last post was actually quite interesting and well thought out in response from a very well written entry from FJR6.

I find that the most frustrating thing about going to a movie is that I know that whatever I see is going to be 90% made up propagandist cinematic glamoristic bullshit based on the distorted 10% of the facts. That is hollywood. I would absolutely love to see a director begin to make movies that were really realistic. Maybe they wouldn't sell as many tickets, but it would make me happy. Who knows, maybe people would like it...

I think it would cut down on the number of stupid people who think that what they see in the movies is real... heh, you'd be surprised at how may there are.

My vote for the worst goes to Captain Corelli's Mandolin, I haven't seen that one posted here yet. The second-worst is any movie portraying German soldiers made after 1976.
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Post by fredrich »

Ugh, I meant the post on July 13th, not the one submitted while I was writing my previous post. Too many ****ing remarks that ****ing start with ****ing ****ed up **** words.
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Post by Terje »

Worst portrayal of German soldiers. How about 'Allo, 'Allo?

Oh the fair side it must be noted that their counterparts hardly fared much better.
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Superior soldiers

Post by Terje »

I want to grab on to a part of this thread....who where the superior soldiers of ww2? Assuming that we do not argue about which was the better army/war machine, and for the sake of simplicity also assuming that we choose the year 1942 when the armies were not yet seriously under the influence of massive losses and declining material quality,
let's attempt to define what makes a soldier superior to another.

a) training
b) experience
c) personal equipment
d) personal weapons
e) morale

Am I forgetting anything important here?

Here are our contenders for the title. They are all infantry, frontline units, and the best equipped of their country. To shorten the list, only soldiers from major combating countries were selected. The order of the list is arbitrary.

1) The Italian soldier
2) The German soldier
3) The English soldier
4) The American soldier
5) The Russian soldier
6) The Japanese soldier
7) The Australian soldier

a) training
This early in the war, the countries could still put in the field men who had received prewar training. Certainly the previous war had given their officers the opportunity to learn. Considering their ambitions for the war I think the German and Japanese soldiers were very well trained, while I am not so certain this could be said for the Italians... By 1942 I think German, British and Australian soldiers were being trained to the ears. The Russians had done a fairly thorough job of killing or imprisoning many of their own ww1-experienced officers and I dare say the results of this were showing in 1942.

b) experience
By early 1942, combat experience was considerable in all these armies except America and Russia.

c) personal equipment
The Italian gear may, surprisingly, be the winner of this category. The desert clothing was good at keeping the heat out, and the Italians were early adaptors of camouflage for their common troops. English, American and Japanese equipment was good - until winter arrived. They also lacked camo. The Australian gear was gradually being Englishified into P37. The Russian gear was at this time of low production quality and very unevenly distributed, but the winter kit was much better at retaining heat than the Germans'. The German kit, yes....how good was it, really? The winter gear was abysmal for the entire war and the leather gear was expensive. On the other hand the helmets were great and the camo too - although camo was mostly an SS item.

d) personal weapons
Keeping the bolt rifles out of the debate I'd say the Germans, British and Russian and American soldiers were best off in the SMG department. The Americans had a winner in the semiautomatic Garand that none of the other countries could match in reasonable numbers - in 1942.

e) morale
In early 1942 I'd say all the soldiers felt they had a lot to fight for. The Axis were on the offensive, while the British no longer were alone in resisting them and probably felt very good about that. The Italians had sustained heavy and humiliating losses in Africa and Greece and were probably not so happy about their position anymore.


From this little rant I'd say the German soldier COULD be the superior one, in the early summer of 1942. I'd say the English and Australian soldier would be close contenders. At this time the three were indeed fighting each other in north Africa, and from all records the man-to-man fighting was furious. The Italians were also there but excepting the Ariadne division their performance was very disappointing. And yes, the Americans did arrive eventually as well and I seem to recall that they had a tough time?


Ok, I've said my piece....now rip it to pieces. But constructively, PLEASE?
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