how long would the combined forces of the uk lasted against an invassion
and witch german units would have gone in first..
operation seelion a success
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Jason Pipes
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Excellent question, one of the better "what if" questions around.
There is actually a great deal of information about Operation Sealion that is available to research and study, there are even some EXCELLENT German and English language books on the subject (not the what if part, but the planning and preperation).
The invasion was going to take place against a significant section of the English coast from Deal in the northeast (about 50 miles from Canterbury) to southwest of Hastings. A para drop was also going to be made as well. The German invasion was going to be lifted in 4 major transport sorites of assorted Kriegsmarine vessels, everything from highly specialized landing craft to tugs and fishing boats. Each of the 4 transport sorties was going to land three waves of German troops. The first wave in each of the 4 transport sector was planned to be:
Portions of 35.Inf.Div and 17.Inf.Div
Portions of 7.Inf.Div and 1.Geb.Div.
Portions of 34.Inf.Div and 26.Inf.Div.
Portions of 6.Geb.Div, 8.Inf.Div and 28.Inf.Div
For a total of 67,000 troops in the first wave.
There is no telling what would have occured if the operation had gone ahead. I think in reality the British airforce and navy would have pounded the transport fleet into pulp, but if they had made it ashore, the ragtag remains of the British army would have been no real match for the resulting battles.
There is actually a great deal of information about Operation Sealion that is available to research and study, there are even some EXCELLENT German and English language books on the subject (not the what if part, but the planning and preperation).
The invasion was going to take place against a significant section of the English coast from Deal in the northeast (about 50 miles from Canterbury) to southwest of Hastings. A para drop was also going to be made as well. The German invasion was going to be lifted in 4 major transport sorites of assorted Kriegsmarine vessels, everything from highly specialized landing craft to tugs and fishing boats. Each of the 4 transport sorties was going to land three waves of German troops. The first wave in each of the 4 transport sector was planned to be:
Portions of 35.Inf.Div and 17.Inf.Div
Portions of 7.Inf.Div and 1.Geb.Div.
Portions of 34.Inf.Div and 26.Inf.Div.
Portions of 6.Geb.Div, 8.Inf.Div and 28.Inf.Div
For a total of 67,000 troops in the first wave.
There is no telling what would have occured if the operation had gone ahead. I think in reality the British airforce and navy would have pounded the transport fleet into pulp, but if they had made it ashore, the ragtag remains of the British army would have been no real match for the resulting battles.
Agreed ... if the Germans get a shore in significant strength and properly supplied they will decimate the British army in short fashion. The major problem here is getting ashore and keeping the units supplied.
The Luftwaffe must not only defeat the RAF but the Royal Navy as well. Even two British battleships would be enough to destroy a significant portion of the invasion fleet.
The failure of Goring and the Luftwaffe to properly prepare for a strategic as well as a tactical role is the ultimate failure in this battle. If the Luftwaffe had developed adequate strategic resources (a 4-engine bomber and fighters with longer range - or drop tanks) the battle would have gone much diffrently.
The Luftwaffe must not only defeat the RAF but the Royal Navy as well. Even two British battleships would be enough to destroy a significant portion of the invasion fleet.
The failure of Goring and the Luftwaffe to properly prepare for a strategic as well as a tactical role is the ultimate failure in this battle. If the Luftwaffe had developed adequate strategic resources (a 4-engine bomber and fighters with longer range - or drop tanks) the battle would have gone much diffrently.
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Tom Houlihan
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I used to have a book on the invasion, written by a Major in the Royal Tank Corps. Unfortunately, right now I cannot recall either the title, or his name. I think it was Macksey, but I can't swear to it. Anyway, he apparently did lots of research, and may well have gamed it out, but his take on the invasion didn't look good for the home team. Just like 6-6-44, there would have had to have been several things that all went 'just so,' in order for complete success. I remember ending that book wondering what really could have happened had the Germans gone ahead with it. If Overlord wasn't able to launch from England, things could have turned out radically differently, nein?
If the Germans had taken Britian in the fall of 1940, the balance of power in the world today might be diffrent.
Its hard to imagine the US fighting two sea-wars at the same time. With Britian gonem the US has no stagging ground for an invasion. Perhaps they can land in North Africa, but that is still a far way from fighing in France.
Russia may very well fall to the Germans and their allies. All of Europe from England to Moscow could be uncer German control before the Americans can rearm. Then America has a two front war (Atlantic and Pacific) and the Germans have only one front.
The atomic bomb would become more crucial than ever.
Would Britian continue the fight from her colonies? What would happen to the British fleet? These are crucial questions as well.
Its hard to imagine the US fighting two sea-wars at the same time. With Britian gonem the US has no stagging ground for an invasion. Perhaps they can land in North Africa, but that is still a far way from fighing in France.
Russia may very well fall to the Germans and their allies. All of Europe from England to Moscow could be uncer German control before the Americans can rearm. Then America has a two front war (Atlantic and Pacific) and the Germans have only one front.
The atomic bomb would become more crucial than ever.
Would Britian continue the fight from her colonies? What would happen to the British fleet? These are crucial questions as well.
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Tom Houlihan
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Oh, I have no doubts that the Brits would have continued to fight, from wherever they could have maintained a toehold. If you wanted to give Tommy credit for nothing else, he's a stubborn sod! You're right, today's balance of power would be radically different! Had we eventually been able to defeat the Axis, my feeling is that we would have had to start somewhere in Africa, away from DAK, and work our way back the long way! The next closest staging area would have been Greenland, and that was just a little too far out.
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LiL_Puma
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Even if the Germans did manage to establish a beachead in England, it'd be a Normandy-style battle for months on end, with the Germans encountering resistance throughout the British Isles. It would've taken quite some time just to conquer southern England. Then there would still be the not-so-panzer-friendly terrain of Scotland. I can say this, an invasion of the British Isles would be a very prolonged campaign, similar in some ways to the Italian Campaign in OTL.
Fighting in England would tie down British capabilities at the time to fight on other fronts. Notably Egypt, with most of the supplies being sent directly to England. The Italians might actually have a chance against the British without the help of the Germans.
The Royal Navy, even if England was lost, would still continue to be a major threat, instead operating off of Canadian bases along the eastern seaboard. Resistance groups like the French Resistance would form in England, and Churchill would continue to fight the war.
It'd be interesting if Canada had a much bigger role in the war against Germany. I can picture the creation of a much larger Canadian Armed Forces then in OTL.
Fighting in England, say through 1941-2, maybe even in 1943 would keep the main operations of the Whermarcht tired up in the west. Doing so would keep Hitler from invading the Soviet Union. Thought it would'nt tie up his forces enough to make a series of small offensives into the Balkans.
Ok, so now let's say it's late 1943. The British Isles, exluding Independent Ireland, has been all but swallowed up by the Germans. The British have just been pushed out of Egypt, and Italy has seized control of the Suez Canal. Franco, aware that the Allies are no longer as powerful as they were, begins leaning towards Hitler, and the fate of Malta and Girbralter is becoming apparent.
US involvement in the war would've been much slower than in OTL. Without any principal bases in Europe to operate from, the Americans would have to establish naval superiority in the Atlantic, before they could invade Europe. Another question arises. Where? Norway? Britan? France? Algeria? Something like this would be to broad in scope for me to analyze.
Having established a foothold in the Middle East, the Germans see an opportunity to seize Persian Gulf oil fields in Iraq. In OTL, a pro-Axis coup attempt occured in 1941, which eventually failed, due to Soviet and British efforts. Let's say, for the same reason the British lost Egypt, that coup was actually a coup 'de tat. The Soviets would'nt have intervened because Stalin, see'ing how Hitler was respecting the Non-Agression pact they signed earlier, in a way let Hitler do what he wanted, watching and enjoying how he crushed the British. Anyways, so a pro-Axis regieme is set up in Iraq, and Hitler maches into the country unopposed.
From here, the rest is pretty sad. It is 1943. Hitler ggot what he tried to get in the summer of 1942 in the Caucasus during OTL. The German war machine is more powerful and effective than ever under the brilliant management and administration of Albert Speer. German and Italian troops are now battle-hardened veterans.
Now there is only one more place to look. Hitler stares upon the open steppes of Russia. Meanwhile, the Soviet bear sleeps...
= Yes I Know This Could Be Inaccurate
= Yes I Know My Spelling and Grammer Arn't Good
= Yes I Know You Might Think I'm Stupid
= But This Is Just What I Think
= And It's Not Your Job To Tell Me What Goes On In My Head!
- LiL_Puma
Fighting in England would tie down British capabilities at the time to fight on other fronts. Notably Egypt, with most of the supplies being sent directly to England. The Italians might actually have a chance against the British without the help of the Germans.
The Royal Navy, even if England was lost, would still continue to be a major threat, instead operating off of Canadian bases along the eastern seaboard. Resistance groups like the French Resistance would form in England, and Churchill would continue to fight the war.
It'd be interesting if Canada had a much bigger role in the war against Germany. I can picture the creation of a much larger Canadian Armed Forces then in OTL.
Fighting in England, say through 1941-2, maybe even in 1943 would keep the main operations of the Whermarcht tired up in the west. Doing so would keep Hitler from invading the Soviet Union. Thought it would'nt tie up his forces enough to make a series of small offensives into the Balkans.
Ok, so now let's say it's late 1943. The British Isles, exluding Independent Ireland, has been all but swallowed up by the Germans. The British have just been pushed out of Egypt, and Italy has seized control of the Suez Canal. Franco, aware that the Allies are no longer as powerful as they were, begins leaning towards Hitler, and the fate of Malta and Girbralter is becoming apparent.
US involvement in the war would've been much slower than in OTL. Without any principal bases in Europe to operate from, the Americans would have to establish naval superiority in the Atlantic, before they could invade Europe. Another question arises. Where? Norway? Britan? France? Algeria? Something like this would be to broad in scope for me to analyze.
Having established a foothold in the Middle East, the Germans see an opportunity to seize Persian Gulf oil fields in Iraq. In OTL, a pro-Axis coup attempt occured in 1941, which eventually failed, due to Soviet and British efforts. Let's say, for the same reason the British lost Egypt, that coup was actually a coup 'de tat. The Soviets would'nt have intervened because Stalin, see'ing how Hitler was respecting the Non-Agression pact they signed earlier, in a way let Hitler do what he wanted, watching and enjoying how he crushed the British. Anyways, so a pro-Axis regieme is set up in Iraq, and Hitler maches into the country unopposed.
From here, the rest is pretty sad. It is 1943. Hitler ggot what he tried to get in the summer of 1942 in the Caucasus during OTL. The German war machine is more powerful and effective than ever under the brilliant management and administration of Albert Speer. German and Italian troops are now battle-hardened veterans.
Now there is only one more place to look. Hitler stares upon the open steppes of Russia. Meanwhile, the Soviet bear sleeps...
= Yes I Know This Could Be Inaccurate
= Yes I Know My Spelling and Grammer Arn't Good
= Yes I Know You Might Think I'm Stupid
= But This Is Just What I Think
= And It's Not Your Job To Tell Me What Goes On In My Head!
- LiL_Puma
Sorry ... just can't see some of what you propose happening. IF Germany successfully invade England one of two things will happen.
The Germans will be able to supply their forces and the Panzer will crush the remnants of the British Army - or - the Germans are not able to supply their troops and the German invasion force is cut-off by the Royal Navy/RAF and left to die on the vien. Either way, the invasion is settled in 2-3 months at the most, most liekly sooner.
IF England losses that fight, it is for a world of hurt. I agree that Franco may join Hitler, he always covetted Gibralter and French North Africa would look awfully tempting.
Without England, the Americans, when and if they join the war, will have a very hard time establishing a bridge head on the contient.
In other words, German either wins big or losses some of its finest divisions and is humiliated on the world stage.
The Germans will be able to supply their forces and the Panzer will crush the remnants of the British Army - or - the Germans are not able to supply their troops and the German invasion force is cut-off by the Royal Navy/RAF and left to die on the vien. Either way, the invasion is settled in 2-3 months at the most, most liekly sooner.
IF England losses that fight, it is for a world of hurt. I agree that Franco may join Hitler, he always covetted Gibralter and French North Africa would look awfully tempting.
Without England, the Americans, when and if they join the war, will have a very hard time establishing a bridge head on the contient.
In other words, German either wins big or losses some of its finest divisions and is humiliated on the world stage.
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LiL_Puma
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Hmmm... I'd still have to disagree about an invasion of England. Lemme show you some statistics about the Normandy Invasion.
Operation Overlord
- Previous Amphibious Landing Experience
(Diepe, Operation Torch, Anzio, Salerno.)
- The Right Equipment
(DUKWs, DD-Sherman, Churchill AVRE)
- Air Superiority
- Naval Superiority
- Battle of Normandy lasted 2-3 Months
Rather than go into the details of Operation Sealion, which porbably would've haven't succeded at all, I'll just give the URL of an article which covers basicly all the reasons I think an invasion of England would've been a very hard won battle, if that were possible.
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm
- LiL_Puma
Operation Overlord
- Previous Amphibious Landing Experience
(Diepe, Operation Torch, Anzio, Salerno.)
- The Right Equipment
(DUKWs, DD-Sherman, Churchill AVRE)
- Air Superiority
- Naval Superiority
- Battle of Normandy lasted 2-3 Months
Rather than go into the details of Operation Sealion, which porbably would've haven't succeded at all, I'll just give the URL of an article which covers basicly all the reasons I think an invasion of England would've been a very hard won battle, if that were possible.
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm
- LiL_Puma