Estonians making a clean break with Soviet past?

[phylo_roadking]

In the beauty of the lilies
Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom
That transfigures you and me;
As He died to make men holy
Let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on."

This was the Civil War and what Union Troops fought for

Nope, this is what they marched to. "John Brown's body" is a song about Harper's Ferry and Abolitionism, not the Civil War.

[phylo_roadking]

DXTR - you've also left aside the whole aspect of the first Fuhrer oath, that for officers of Manstein's background held them fast to their duty and obedience - over and above their own sense of duty and responsibility for so many years...whether they liked it or not. So many Junker officers baulked at breaking an oath that automatically made them traitors to Germany by disobeying AH. He had taken the welfare of Germany and tied it down as being on his side of the equation in the oath.

if we accept the kellog Briand agreement as international law

I'll just throw in here what Wiki has, as as far as I remember from school its pretty accurate...

The 1927 Kellogg-Briand Pact was concluded outside the League of Nations, and remains a binding treaty under international law. In the United States it remains in force as part of the supreme positive law, under Article Six of the United States Constitution.

As a practical matter, the Kellogg-Briand Pact did not live up to its aim of ending war, and in this sense it made no immediate contribution to international peace and proved to be ineffective in the years to come; the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931, the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935, and the German invasion of Poland in 1939, were prime examples of this. However, the pact is an important multilateral treaty because, in addition to binding the particular nations that signed it, it has also served as one of the legal bases establishing the international norms that the threat or use of military force in contravention of international law, as well as the territorial acquisitions resulting from it, are unlawful.

Notably, the pact served as the legal basis for the creation of the notion of crime against peace — it was for committing this crime that the Nuremberg Tribunal sentenced a number of persons responsible for starting World War II.

In other words - it was technically only binding on signatories - BUT THEY then applied it to others in 1945. because they could. As with so many things though - might doesn't necessarily make it right.

The problem facing every soldier on any level is if he should carry out an order that is illegal

Well, this MAY be true - but it them hasn't stopped tens of thousands from going right on ahead. Even down to today....

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Nope, this is what they marched to. "John Brown's body" is a song about Harper's Ferry and Abolitionism, not the Civil War.

Uh, don't forget that "John Brown's Body" is an even more radical statement about the evils of slavery and the sainthood of those who fought against it:

|: John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave, :|
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
But his soul goes marching on.

Chorus:
|: Glory, glory, hallelujah, :|
Glory, glory, hallelujah,
His soul goes marching on.

|: He's gone to be a soldier in the Army of the Lord, :|
He's gone to be a soldier in the Army of the Lord,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

|: John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back, :|
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

|: John Brown died that the slaves might be free, :|
John Brown died that the slaves might be free,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

|: The stars above in Heaven now are looking kindly down, :|
The stars above in Heaven now are looking kindly down,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

Imagine a regime so evil that it could and would justify selling off your children and your wife! That is too EVIL even for me!

Slavery is something that we Americans took a stand on and won, despite the so-called Confederacy! As opposed to sheer racial bigotry, slavery was a concept that hundreds of thousands of men were willing to give their precious lives to fight against!!!!

May God's Glory Hold Each of Those Lives In His Eternal Bosom!

Best,
David

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Some people , sadly, choose to ignore what the common Union soldier's sacrifice was for and prefer to see things in terms of "State's Rights" when the evidence is right below their noses!

Ah Hell, who can ever admit that ther ancestors fought for an evil and inhumane cause!!!!????

Best,
David

[phylo_roadking]

Some people , sadly, choose to ignore what the common Union soldier's sacrifice was for and prefer to see things in terms of "State's Rights" when the evidence is right below their noses!

Aha...a new Conspiracy Theory - those weren't Confederate cannon that shelled Fort Sumter, they were Union crews in grey and butternut. Or perhaps the Confederacy started the war so that they'd loose it and the slaves would be freed without them having to lose face doing it? Crafty.

Nope, this is what they marched to. "John Brown's body" is a song about Harper's Ferry and Abolitionism, not the Civil War.


Uh, don't forget that "John Brown's Body" is an even more radical statement about the evils of slavery and the sainthood of those who fought against it:

Yes, and what authorities hung said gentleman? Dave, all I can say, knowing some of the people on this board and how you're going to be hit with a huge amount of fact upon the morrow and how this thread is going to spiral and run and run, is...."Father, forgive them, they know not what they do" Have you had this strange fetish for standing under avalanches/driving over black cats/walking under ladders for long?

[Rajin Cajun]

Phylo its purposeful trolling thats about it. I'm not even going to respond to the garbage on here because its only going to piss me off. Dave can believe whatever he wants and listen to the Abolitionist Prop but the Confederacy was as much about Slavery as the University of Notre Dame is about a Hunchback.

I figure since some people here are so quick to throw racism as the means to the Second American Revolution, War of Southern Independence or the War of Northern Aggression whichever you like to use here is a little diddy from my favorite political commentator the Southern Avenger on ole' Abe Lincoln and his neww bunkmate in hell Saddam Hussein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqOmQlYwUBA

[Reb]

General Lee freed his slaves years before Grant freed his. Given the state of our schools it is widely believed that Lincoln's emancipation proclomation freed the slaves. Nope. It freed the slaves in the yankee army's op area.

Years later the slaves were freed by constitutional ammendment. At which point Grant complained that "good help is hard to find." Yep. But he didn't like Jews either so I guess he was a complete man. Or at least, a complete yankee.

cheers
Reb

[Reb]

And I am hereby locking myself out of this thread.

Back to WW2.

Reb

[pzrmeyer2]

Slavery is something that we Americans took a stand on and won, despite the so-called Confederacy! As opposed to sheer racial bigotry, slavery was a concept that hundreds of thousands of men were willing to give their precious lives to fight against!!!!

Exactly, Dave, which then begs the question: If we (meaning whitey) "owe" blacks for slavery, what do blacks owe "us" for ending it?
Dont 326,000 Federal troops killed more than negate any spurious claims of "reparations"?

[pzrmeyer2]

Also, Dave, knowing your fondness for Imperial Japan, If Lee and Manstein were wrong in supporting so called immoral regimes what are your thoughts on Yamamoto?

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi PZ2--just remember that I personally oppose reparations. I'm too old for 40 acres and a mule... And besides, the Union Dead, just like the Confederate daed, deserve respect, because they died fighting for a Cause--whether right or wrong, at this historical viewpoint it would be wrong to disregard their sacrifices, especially since, like in WWII, the Good Guys won.

As for Yamamoto, well, he's dead, right? His grave is payment enough.

But, Reb is right, let's get this Thread back on Topic and leave the Civil War for other Boards.

Very Best,
David

[pzrmeyer2]

----

[pzrmeyer2]

Hi PZ2--just remember that I personally oppose reparations. I'm too old for 40 acres and a mule... And besides, the Union Dead, just like the Confederate daed, deserve respect, because they died fighting for a Cause--whether right or wrong, at this historical viewpoint it would be wrong to disregard their sacrifices, especially since, like in WWII, the Good Guys won.

As for Yamamoto, well, he's dead, right? His grave is payment enough.

But, Reb is right, let's get this Thread back on Topic and leave the Civil War for other Boards.

Very Best,
David

Dave, while I view both of your answers as a cop-out, I will respect your desire to leave the topic of the personal morality of Robert E. Lee, Manstein, and Yamamoto behind. Espeially since I was not the one to bring Lee into the topic in the first place.

[tenoriodj]

The rioting in Tallinn seems to have finally ended, thanks partly by the cold temperatures. the monument will be unveiled in its new location on May 8th, a military cemetery near Filtri Street.

The Russian foreign ministry and government controlled media meanwhile, continues to speak of this action by Estonia as "blasphemous," betraying "fascist" tendencies etc etc. These statements are echoed by the Russian minority in Estonia.

So where do we go from here? The rift beween that 30% ethnic Russian (many not holding an Estonian passport!) and the majority is now greater than ever. Will the ethnic Russians finally feel Estonia is a country well worth being a part of? Will Russians, both at home and abroad, ever own up to the evils of the Soviet past, and be able to reconstruct their rightful patriotism upon a different foundation?

Estonian citizenship laws should no longer be an obstacle. An important paragraph I would hightlight from the wikipedia article on "baltic Russians":

"Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have since 2004 been members of NATO and the European Union (EU) and this provides a counterbalance to Russia's claims to speak for the interests of ethnic Russian residents of these countries. Furthermore, both Estonia and Latvia, after they had become candidates for EU membership, to satisfy a precondition for their admission to the EU, adjusted their citizenship policies in response to EU monitoring and requests. Claims of discrimination in basic rights by Russians and other minorities in the region may have less efficacy now than they did during the years when the Baltic countries' membership applications were still pending with the EU."

[Musashi]

The monument has not been destroyed, just moved to other place:

Monument to unknown fallen Russian soldiers relocated into military cemetery. Tallinn, Estonia. 30.04.2007

Monument to unknown fallen Russian soldiers relocated into military cemetery. Tallinn, Estonia. 30.04.2007

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showpo ... ostcount=3

The Bronze Soldier, a statue commemorating Soviet soldiers killed during World War II rises at its new location, the Defense Forces Cemetery, Tallinn, Monday, April 30, 2007, three days after its removal from a downtown square in Estonia's capital provoked riots by ethnic Russians. The sign reads in Estonian and Russian: "To the Unknown Sodier." Some ethnic Estonians consider the memorial a bitter reminder of the Soviet occupation of their Baltic republic, while ethnic Russians view its removal as a slap at Soviet contributions and another example of discrimination against Russians

Head of the Russian State Duma delegation Nikolai Kovalyov, left, shakes hands with supreme director of Estonian police Raivo Aeg during their meeting in Tallinn, Monday, April 30, 2007, three days after the removal of a Soviet war memorial from a downtown square in Estonia's capital and riots by ethnic Russians provoked by the move. Our opinion is that the Estonian government must resign," Kovalyov, chairman of the Duma's veterans committee and former director of the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the main successor of the Soviet-era KGB secret police, was quoted as saying by the Russian news agency Interfax. "It is obvious that the government provoked the crisis and failed to cope with the unrest in which one person was killed."

Head of the Russian State Duma delegation Nikolai Kovalyov, left, member of the Russian delegation Leonid Slutsky, center, and Deputy Speaker of Estonian Parliament Kristiina Ojuland, foreground right, speak during their meeting in Tallinn, Monday, April 30, 2007, three days after the removal of a Soviet war memorial from a downtown square in Estonia's capital and riots by ethnic Russians provoked by the move. "Our opinion is that the Estonian government must resign," Kovalyov, chairman of the Duma's veterans committee and former director of the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the main successor of the Soviet-era KGB secret police, was quoted as saying by the Russian news agency Interfax.