Now Here's an Interesting Story....

Fiction, movies, alternate history, humor, and other non-research topics related to WWII.

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Commissar D, the Evil
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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:02 pm

Oh, Cott Tiger wrote:
Totally disagree.
I respect his opinion, although it disagrees with mine. We Americans, having lived with centuries of racism, are probably less sensitive to racial insults than modern Germans. I do point out that the instructor used the words "African-American". In America, it would simply be "Niggers" which is why I have a certain sympathy for the Instructer.

Still, I have to respect Cott Tiger for his integrity and and sensitivity to this issue and admit that I could very well be wrong about what is right and what is wrong in a culture that I know very little of.

Very Best,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

Reb
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Post by Reb » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:06 am

Andre

One of my more interesting security tasks was to train "labor relations" teams - ie strike duty bulls.

It was absolutely essential that those guys be able to take lots of flak without getting mad. To test them I'd line them up and call them everything but a nice guy, utilzing race, their mama and so on! :wink:

anyone who could withstand my hail of highly charged insults was on the team! 8)

I'd probably be hanged if I tried that now days. Funny how our kindler gentler world has so many rough edges for folks to bump up against.

cheers
Reb

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Post by phylo_roadking » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:16 am

Tom and Reb...(and Andre and Dave) - as you both know, in Basic - no matter what the nation - you have to teach a guy to kill at the same time as you teach a guy how NOT to get killed. I think this was discussed before, last summer. Noone may like the racial/social/political? stereotypes used - but you use what works, and the triggers are different for each guy. You teach him use of arms and respect for what he's carrying and what it does and how it can do it to HIM and his messmates if he's not careful - THEN you teach him how to use it intentionally to kill after teaching him for weeks how NOT to.

Not enough..edge...and all you get is the disrespect for death and other folks' wellbeing out beyound the pointy end of your gat that the Germans are showing in several places of the Middle East with increasing frequency. TOO much political correctness and you don't manage to get through those 18 or so years of indoctrination that the media has rammed into them....
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Post by Uli » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:05 am

Commissar D, the Evil wrote:By the way, I read on the internet today that the instructor who used the inappropriate language was dismissed from the German Army. I regard this as an over-reaction by the powers that be and personally, do not agree with the decision.

The reason I don't agree with the decision is because I see so little harm done to anyone because of his method of training and consider him, from the perspective of an African-American who works in the Bronx, as simply a victim of the international media, which blew this incident up all out of proportion. :down: :down: :down: :(

Soldiers say many things to other soldiers, much of which is politically incorrect, but then, the business of being a soldeir is politically incorrect! His bad luck was to be caught on-camera and that sort of exposure to the world media, I find false and dishonerable.

Best,
~D, the EviL
You mean to tell us that you're a splib? I would never have guessed! Never in a million years. Gotta' admit, you're reasonably articulate for one. 8) Guess that explains your penchant for living in hyper-toxic New Jersey.

If they had fired every black man who issued a racial slur or epithet during my time in service, we'd have become a pre-Truman American military once more. In a heartbeat. No kidding.

Outta' here, folks. Don't strain your necks trying to find a Klansman behind every tree.

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Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:30 am

Uli, I hate to ask this, but was is a "splib"?

Never heard that before, not in 55 years.

~D, the EviL
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:49 am

Firing him was a bit strong. A gentle word in his ear, followed by nailing the individual who publicised the video to a door and using him for knife-throwing practice might have been more appropriate.

PK

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Post by phylo_roadking » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:55 am

Yeah, whoever he is - when the sh1t starts flying, he's the sort of friend you want in front of your gunbarrel, not behind you back!
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Post by Alex Coles » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:58 pm

Ah. It's always 'inferior' races (to some) such as blacks, slavs (etc.) that are the ones getting bullied. It makes me feel sick considering i'm black, although not afro-caribbean.
Alex

(Also known as 17 SS)

Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:09 am

Alex,

Remember the maxim: that which does not kill you makes you stronger. I was mercilessly bullied at school in London as a young lad some thirty-five years ago for being Irish. Even the teachers piled it on. Well, they were expensive schools so the staff were hardly likely to be paid-up democrats! It toughened me up. Maybe a bit too much, because I often ended up in trouble for violence. I had quite a few black mates in the same boat. I managed to get rid of much of that anger but I remain pretty hard-boiled. Nobody fcuks with me face to face, even in the harder areas of town. So, young man, go with it. Things that taste horrible are usually good for you in the long run. A dose of poison a day builds up your resistance to it. Learn to box. I did. Learn to fight. Never look for trouble but if trouble finds you, get your retaliation in first and hard. Learn how to put a man out of action. But don't forget to be kind and gentle to 'normal' people.

PK

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Post by Paulus II » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:14 am

Very true what Paddy says Alex,
I’ve been in the same position when I lived in Mexico as a kid. Went to an English school and was regularly bullied by ‘superior’ Englishmen in school and on the streets by Mexicans that think that every whitey is a ‘Gringo’ and therefore must be hated and beaten up.
Learned to box, judo and some mean tricks in the street. After a few fights (first me getting hurt and later the others getting hurt) I was never bullied again.
At first the bullying and fighting turned me into an angry young man and I misused my fighting power on a regular basis, sometimes just to “win” a debate. As I got older the anger wore off, the ‘don’t take any crap’-mentality didn’t.
Nowadays I’m mostly friendly, polite and easy-going, helpful when I can as I would like all people to be. But don’t actively look for trouble with me. Brutal violence will be the answer.
Out in the streets those that find bothering people a nice passtime usually recognise people like me for what we are and don’t even attempt to try anything.
Never look for trouble yourself but be ready for it when it comes. You ‘radiate’ that readiness and will hardly ever be bothered.

Be well and be cool,

Paul

Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:30 am

first me getting hurt and later the others getting hurt
:D

Been there too! Of course, it's not always about how you win a fight. It's also about how you lose a fight. In our day, a man - or boy - who went down fighting was respected even by street thugs. Today, very few street thugs respect those old rules of manly conduct. Sadly, pointing a gun at such individuals is often the only solution, unless you can outrun them! It is not worth fighting with scum. There is nothing to gain from it.

PK

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Post by sid guttridge » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:53 am

Hi Guys,

Amidst all your swaggering, you are overlooking the fact that most people are not and never can be personally equipped to dominate their environment. They require communal structures through which to assert themselves.

What you are essentially saying is "I can look after myself. Sod the rest of you!".

You are also ignoring the fact that all the violent reactions you recommend are equally usable by those with malicious intent. What is more, by virtue of their maliciousness they are less likely to show restraint.

That is why society needs properly constituted laws and agencies to enforce them, rather than vigilanteism. The bad guys, you or I, may not like particular laws, but we are obliged to conform to them and not make up our own rules as we go along. That way lies anarchy.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by phylo_roadking » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:04 am

and not make up our own rules as we go along. That way lies anarchy.
Sid, check your textbook definition of anarchy...and then take a look at the motives of true Anarchists from the 19th and early 20th century. Anarchy is such a bad thing? :D :D :D
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Post by Paulus II » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:16 am

Come on now Sid,

Yes, some of us can look after ourselves very well indeed but you draw some pretty quick conclusions from that.

I am very well aware that most people are not equiped to dominate their environment and DO need the communal structures you speak of.
I wonder how you get from being able to defend yourself to vigilanteism and anarchy. That's reaching a bit too far in my opinion.
When confronted with a gun: no fun at all, it has happened a couple of times to me but I'm still here, unscathed, none the poorer and without loss of dignity. Actually managed to talk myself out of it every time.
Except for that one time when I was back in Mexico in my early twenties and the truck I was driving was held up in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night. No amount of firepower would have saved me then so I handed over the dough.

What I am MOST certainly NOT saying is: Sod the rest of you!
Au contraire! It would be very much against my views on where the divide of responsabilities between individuals and 'the collective' lies.


Cheers,

Paul

Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:29 am

Paulus II just said it for me. We're hardly "swaggering", Sid. We referred to getting beaten as well. You speak of the necessity of laws. Yes, you're right. However, the problem is that we can no longer have any confidence in the proper application of said laws by our leaders and their bootboys. Malicious thugs are not restrained by Law, Sid. Not in our society at any rate. They do whatever they like knowing they will enjoy complete or substantial impunity. I know you will disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing but I would remind you that you are sitting in a rural idyll rather than a European inner city so don't be so quick to dismiss our feelings. What we are seeing will reach you in time. And you may be glad of your army training when it does.

PK

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