another sad chapter....

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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Well, look at it this way.....

Britain ended up regaining all her territories...then rapidly giving them away.

The US got two sectors in Occupied Germany, naval bases round the world....and what else? Apart from a BIG taxpayer's burden :? :? :?

Russia "got" most of Eastern Europe - if its politically-correct to use the term "got".....

What did France get? ALL her colonies back, which she didn't start giving away for another decade or more and on favourable terms (Algerian oil), reparations paid, support from left, right and centre (and I DONT mean politically! LOL) She has a navy four times the size of the Royal Navy, a truly independent nuclear deterrent, and a handful of possessions around the world still.

And thats not "winning" compared to all the others? :D :D :D

(PRC are there by default LMAO they picked up the ball the Nationalists dropped...)
Well the US coast guard does it frequently. So do the navies and coast guards of other states
But only with the goodwill or cooperation of captains at sea, or under the terms of any UN mandate or sanction. For example - for forty years - how many Soviet "trawlers" shadowing NATO exercises were ever stopped and searched...and their net sizes checked against international FISHING agreements? :D Not one! And believe me, IF the USN could have done it they would!!!
From what I"ve read the postions given by the British, the captain of the cargo ship, and the original Iranian coordinates were recoginised as being in Iraq's terrritorial waters
After Saddam was overthrown, Iran took the opportunity to extend its national limits in the Gulf to include a section of formerly International water in the area in question, and a section of former Iraqi coastal water. The RN and USN has continued to police this as "International" as the annexation has not been ratified by the UN and will likely not be...and certainly not now LOL

Also, as above and if you've been scoping the news...the RN is not now able to say exactly where it was...!!!
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
lwd
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Post by lwd »

phylo_roadking wrote:...
Well the US coast guard does it frequently. So do the navies and coast guards of other states
But only with the goodwill or cooperation of captains at sea, or under the terms of any UN mandate or sanction. For example - for forty years - how many Soviet "trawlers" shadowing NATO exercises were ever stopped and searched...and their net sizes checked against international FISHING agreements? :D Not one! And believe me, IF the USN could have done it they would!!!
...
Looks like we are both kind of right on this one. If the ship is suspected of being in the drug trade or a pirate the country of registry is suppose to cooperate so they don't need the goodwill of the captain just a quick note to the approriate embassy if a preexisting agreement is not in place.
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_ ... /part7.htm
If they are suspected of violating UN sanctions the same may be true. Once they are in territiorial waters however they are subject to national law.

See:
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_ ... /part7.htm
lwd
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Post by lwd »

phylo_roadking wrote:...
From what I"ve read the postions given by the British, the captain of the cargo ship, and the original Iranian coordinates were recoginised as being in Iraq's terrritorial waters
After Saddam was overthrown, Iran took the opportunity to extend its national limits in the Gulf to include a section of formerly International water in the area in question, and a section of former Iraqi coastal water. The RN and USN has continued to police this as "International" as the annexation has not been ratified by the UN and will likely not be...and certainly not now LOL

Also, as above and if you've been scoping the news...the RN is not now able to say exactly where it was...!!!
The fact that the Iranians changed their story rather points to this being Iraqi waters. aparetnly there is a video of the RN helicpoter over the zodiacs showing a GPS device with coordinates so while they may not have the exact (or may not be shraing) coordinates of their ship I think the RN has a very good fix on the location of the cargo ship when the incident occured. While you might distrust a single GPS device the fact that at one point all parites agreed makes a pretty strong case.
phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking »

I think the RN has a very good fix on the location of the cargo ship when the incident occured. While you might distrust a single GPS device the fact that at one point all parites agreed makes a pretty strong case.
....the only problem on THAT being a certain Prime Minister has stood up and said the RN didn't know...after he was laughed out of the UN last night! So as its the politicians doing the work now, and they say they can't tell, doesn't really matter anymore about the RN :(
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Post by Landser »

UN mandate???

How could that be a UN mandate?The US neocons and GB's old gloryhunters started this despicable barbaric aggression with UNs strikt non-partissipation.

What right gives anybody to search any ships but the countries that are bordering the gulf, for selfprotection.The old Empire building hogwash will just not die.
War does not determine who is right,war determens who is left.
phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Because they're twisting the old 1990s mandate on economic sanctions etc. to allow them to continue searching vessels that could be bringing war materiel into Iraq.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Hans
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Post by Hans »

But THEY are bringing war material into Iraq.

- Hans
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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Nobody has said they weren't. But there's no "smoking gun" - yet. A nice array of parts of RPGs and the like that have been fired at Coalition troops with two- and three-year old date stamps on them...when the war was over FOUR years ago. Things like that. But until they find incontrovertable proof AND stop the flow - which are not the same things, stop-and-searches like this will have to continue. The ONE thing the incident has shown is how disunited internally Iran actually is, as faction-ridden as "modern" Iraq. It doesn't have to be the government of Iran thats suppling the insurgents, it could be any of the pro-insurgent group factions, such as the Iranian Republican Guard which has come to the fore in the last week. Bet you didn't know THEY had one of THOSE? LMAO

And the other side of the coin? Yes, the Coalition IS bringing vast amounts of war materiel into Iraq...but have you noticed something? About 18 months ago great publicity was made of the first units of the newly-rebuilt and retrained Iraqi Army taking the field, trained by the Coalition, and some months ago an Iraqi-only police operation aginst insurgents in Baghdad...which if I remember correctly fell over its own feet in a couple of hours....and I for one haven't heard much about the Iraqi Army since....somebody not telling? :wink: When you hear tales in the Press of Iraqi Police carrying out insurgent-style operations against british forces, or Iraqi ministries - don't you begin to wonder how untrustworthy...or plain out of control...the Army is??? Strange how the Iraqi Army at the very least isn't helping to close the border with Pakistan or operate against the Taliban in the mountains on the border with Afghanistan...
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Guys,

There isn't any serious question that the British were in Iraqi waters, operating under the imprimature of the UN and Iraqi governments. What is more, their presence on these UN-approved duties predates the invasion of Iraq.

The original Iranian protest apparently gave a grid reference for the seizure INSIDE IRAQI WATERS. When the British pointed this out the Iranians subsequently moved the site of the incident into Iranian waters. It doesn't take independent verification to establish the facts, because the Iranians shot themselves in the foot to start with.

There are some interesting US forerunners to this incident - Puebla 1968, Mayaguez 1975 and the Tehran Embassy 1979-80. The latter, of course, involved the current Iraqi president. It doesn't much matter how powerful a country is, if the opposition are living in a fantasy world of their own omnipotence. This current incident may physically involve the British, who are a minor power, but it is in practice a demonstration of US impotence.

With regard to the Iranian small boats: The US did a war game prior to the invasion of Iraq, in which the US Navy's major warships were badly cut up by such small boats in the enclosed waters of the Gulf. HMS Cornwall and most of the US fleet are not suited to such restricted waters. It looks as though a new class of well armed small vessel is required in much the same way as destroyers (originally called torpedo-boat destroyers) were developed to counter the torpedo boat a century ago or MGBs were developed to counter MTBs.

The British government should privately mentally write off the hostages. One cannot have the foreign policy of 60 million people held hostage to the fate of a handful of personnel for whom this event was an occupational hazard. If we get them back it is a bonus. If we don't, Iran must suffer much more heavily.

Iran has done itself serious damage at a time when it needs some wishy-washiness amongst the Western powers in order to complete its nuclear programme. For the sake of a little cheap propaganda it has made it more likely it will not be allowed to achieve nuclear status.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Ian Earl
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Post by Ian Earl »

IMHO we should be standing up to the Iranians a bit more.

The current level of political talk released by the media is more "can we have our ball back please". A little sabre rattling wouldnt go amiss!
Somewhere far far away doing secret things to nasty people in hot climates. Sssshhhh dont tell the wife, she thinks I play a piano in a whore house!
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Post by Reb »

Sid

"The British government should privately mentally write off the hostages"

Perhaps you're right. But no govt has prestige anymore except in their own minds. So what's to lose?

And I submit that these guys were ordered to surrender - that puts responsibility for them back with the govt.

Pussies shouldn't play with guns. That's why I've been against all this middle east nonsense from jump street. Modern democracies aren't tough enough to play these games. (nor morally equipped - post modern democracies don't really believe anything corporately)

Our soldiers are tough enough (and yours too) but our leaders lack brains and courage so they act like bullies yet without any real agenda or doctrine. They can only react. They like to use guns to push folks around but get all wimped out when somebody pushes back.

Its unfair to soldiers to have to serve such doubleminded "men."

cheers
Reb
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Post by dduff442 »

Hi All,

Suppose you were an Iranian Intelligence official and you had a handful of junior servicepersons from what you regard as a hostile power in your possession. Would you threaten them with trial and imprisonment or subject them to Abu-Ghraib style abuses? Or would you allude, to each prisoner privately, to the possibility of a financially rosy future thanks to some ultra-mild propaganda assistance?

The Iranian govt has been entertaining itself of late. It can add $5-$10 to the price of a barrel of oil by simply uttering a few subtly threatening words, words mild enough not to warrant reporting in the major news media but serious enough to spook the financial markets. It enjoys tremendous influence over Iraq without any responsibility and has enjoyed a recent military triumph over Israel thanks to Hizbullah.

Certainly, it has overplayed it's hand several times, as with its declaration that Israel should be wiped off the map. They seem to enjoy the game for its own sake, revelling in the tactics without any strategy at all. For example, they're losing in Lebanon in spite of Hizullah's fighters handing them all the aces.

What is frightening to imagine is an Iran run by a Metternich or a Bismark instead of that circus clown Ahmedinejad. Still, no one should confuse the Iranian regime with a shambles like Saddam's Iraq. Even as the population at large has tired of the revolution over the years, a core of 5-10% has matured technically and politically and that's plenty to ensure the country will never be invaded and occupied in the foreseeable future.

I'll tell you a story that should tell you all you need to know about Iran. A couple of years ago I met an Iranian from a mixed Christian-Muslim background. He had been raised a Christian and, though this didn't count as apostasy legally, it came a little too close for some fanatics. He was subject to regular petty harassment in addition to the normal legal restrictions on non-Muslims. After being conscripted, he was beaten by some drill-sergeants so badly that he suffered a ruptured kidney and nearly died. Nowadays he lives as a refugee and is almost penniless. Such a man might be expected to be first to the roadside to cheer on an invading US army. In fact, he was a fully-paid up subscriber to the 'it's all about oil' theory, and saw the US as a grasping and greedy power eager to rob the country of it's riches.

How could George Bush make such a waste of a hand as strong as the one he held in the wake of 9/11? That atrocity gave him almost unlimited power to refashion the world as he chose. (Imagine if Truman, Eisenhower or Nixon had enjoyed the same opportunity, let alone Kennedy or a Roosevelt). You didn't need to be Henry Kissinger to figure out how Iraq, with no fewer than three major fault-lines (one religious, two ethnic) running through it, might fare under anything other than the most severe authoritarian rule. Saddam made the country a pressure cooker and Bush took the lid off.

Rumsfeld, Cheney and Perle will remain icons of the arrogance of power for decades to come. They remind us the only thing worse than corruption is the combination of corruption with reckless stupidity.

Regards,
dduff
pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

I thought some of you might enjoy the following article...

Unfortunatley, I think Iran knows that Britain is a toothless lion with a population sunk deep in hedonism and civilizational guilt, as is most of the west.

Houses of Straw
The EU’s delusions about the sufficiency of “soft” power are embarrassingly revealed.

By Victor Davis Hanson


‘It’s completely outrageous for any nation to go out and arrest the servicemen of another nation in waters that don’t belong to them.” So spoke Admiral Sir Alan West, former First Sea Lord of the Royal Navy, concerning the present Anglo-Iranian crisis over captured British soldiers. But if the attack was “outrageous,” it was apparently not quite outrageous enough for anything to have been done about it yet.

Sir Alan elaborated on British rules of engagement by stressing they are “very much de-escalatory, because we don’t want wars starting ... Rather than roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were, in effect, able to be captured and taken away.”

One might suggest, not necessarily “sinking everything in sight,” but at least shooting back at a few of the people trying to kidnap Britain’s uniformed soldiers. But the view, apparently, is that stepping back and allowing some chaps to be “captured and taken away” is to be preferred to “roaring into action and sinking everything in sight.” The latter is more or less what Nelson did at the battle of the Nile, when he nearly destroyed the Napoleonic fleet.

The attack coincides roughly with Iran’s announcement that it will end its cooperation with U.N. non-proliferation efforts. That announcement was in reaction to a unanimous vote to begin embargoing some trade with Teheran of critical nuclear-related substances. With that move, Ahmadinejad is essentially notifying the world that Iran will go ahead and get the bomb — and let no one dare try to stop them.

If a non-nuclear Iran kidnaps foreign nationals in international waters, we can imagine what a nuclear theocracy will do. The Iranian thugocracy rightly understands that NATO will not declare the seizure of a member’s personnel an affront to the entire alliance.

Nor will the European Union send its “rapid” defense forces to insist on a return of the hostages. There is simply too much global worry about the price and availability of oil, too much regional concern over stability after Iraq, and too much national anxiety over the cost in lives and treasure that a possible confrontation would bring. Confrontation can be avoided through capitulation, and no Western nation is willing to insist that Iran adhere to any norms of behavior.

Yet the problem is not so much a postfacto “What to do?” as it is a question of why such events happened in serial fashion in the first place.

The paradox now is that, just as no European nation wishes to be seen in solidarity with the United States, so too no European force wishes to venture beyond its borders without acting in concert with the American military, whether on the ground under American air cover or at seas with a U.S. carrier group.

There are reasons along more existential lines for why Iran acts so boldly. After the end of the Cold War, most Western nations — i.e., Europe and Canada — cut their military forces to such an extent that they were essentially disarmed. The new faith was that, after a horrific twentieth century, Europeans and the West in general had finally evolved beyond the need for war.

With the demise of fascism, Nazism, and Soviet Communism, and in the new luxury of peace, the West found itself a collective desire to save money that could be better spent on entitlements, to create some distance from the United States, and to enhance international talking clubs in which mellifluent Europeans might outpoint less sophisticated others. And so three post-Cold War myths arose justify these.

First, that the past carnage had been due to misunderstanding rather than the failure of military preparedness to deter evil.

Second, that the foundations of the new house of European straw would be “soft” power. Economic leverage and political hectoring would deter mixed-up or misunderstood nations or groups from using violence. Multilateral institutions — the World Court or the United Nations — might soon make aircraft carriers and tanks superfluous.

All this was predicated on dealing with logical nations — not those countries so wretched as to have nothing left to lose, or so spiteful as to be willing to lose much in order to hurt others a little, or so crazy as to welcome the “end of days.” This has proved an unwarranted assumption. And with the Middle East flush with petrodollars, non-European militaries have bought better and more plentiful weaponry than that which is possessed by the very Western nations that invented and produced those weapons.

Third, that in the 21st century there would be no serious enemies on the world stage. Any violence that would break out would probably be due instead to either American or Israeli imperial, preemptive aggression — and both nations could be ostracized or humiliated by European shunning and moral censure. The more Europeans could appear to the world as demonizing, even restraining, Washington and Tel Aviv, the more credibility abroad would accrue to their notion of multilateral diplomacy.



But even the European Union could not quite change human nature, and thus could not outlaw the entirely human business of war. There were older laws at play — laws so much more deeply rooted than the latest generation’s faddish notions of conflict resolution. Like Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance, which would work only against the liberal British, and never against a Hitler or a Stalin, so too the Europeans’ moral posturing seemed to affect only the Americans, who singularly valued the respect of such civilized moralists.

Now we are in the seventh year of a new century, and even after the wake-up call on 9/11, Westerners are still relearning each day that the world is a dangerous place. When violence comes to downtown Madrid, the well-meaning Spanish chose to pull out of Iraq — only to uncover more serial terrorist cells intent on killing more Spaniards.

To get their captured journalists freed, Italians paid Islamists bribes — and then found more Italians captured. When Germany, Britain, and France parleyed with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (the “direct talks” that we in the states yearn for) to try to get Iran to cease its plans for nuclear proliferation, he politely ignored the “EU3.” The European Union is upset that Russian agents murder troublemakers inside the EU’s borders, and so registers its displeasure with the Cheshire Vladimir Putin.

The latest Iranian kidnapping of British sailors came after British promises to leave Iraq, and after the British humiliation of 2004, when eight hostages were begged back. Apparently the Iranians have figured either that London would do little if they captured more British subjects or that the navy of Lord Nelson and Admiral Jellico couldn’t stop them if it wanted to.

“London,” of course, is a misnomer, since the Blair government is an accurate reflection of attitudes widely held in both Britain and Europe. These attitudes have already been voiced by the public: this is understandable payback for the arrest of Iranian agents inside Iraq; this is what happens when you ally with the United States; this is what happens when the United States ceases talking with Iran.

The rationalizations are limitless, but essential, since no one in Europe — again, understandably — wishes a confrontation that might require a cessation of lucrative trade with Iran, or an embarrassing military engagement without sufficient assets, or any overt allegiance with the United States. Pundits talk of a military option, but there really is none, since neither Britain nor Europe at large possesses a military.

What does the future hold if Europe does not rearm and make it clear that attacks on Europeans and threats to the current globalized order have repercussions?

If Europeans recoil from a few Taliban hoodlums or Iranian jihadists, new mega-powers like nuclear India and China will simply ignore European protestations as the ankle-biting of tired moralists. Indeed, they do so already.

Why put European ships or planes outside of European territorial waters when that will only guarantee a crisis in which Europeans are kidnapped and held as hostages or used as bargaining chips to force political concessions?

Europe is just one major terrorist operation away from a disgrace that will not merely discredit the EU, but will do so to such a degree as to endanger its citizenry and interests worldwide and their very safety at home. Islamists must assume that an attack on a European icon — Big Ben, the Vatican, or the Eiffel Tower — could be pulled off with relative impunity and ipso facto shatter European confidence and influence. Each day that the Iranians renege on their promises to release the hostages, and then proceed to parade their captives, earning another “unacceptable” from embarrassed British officials, a little bit more of the prestige of the United Kingdom is chipped away.

In the future, smaller nations in dangerous neighborhoods must accept that in their crises ahead, their only salvation, even after the acrimonious Democratic furor over Iraq, is help from the United States.

America alone can guarantee the safety of the noble Kurds, should Turkey or Iran choose one day to invade. America alone will be willing or able to supply Israel with necessary help and weapons to ensure its survival.

Other small nations — a Greece, for example — with long records of vehement anti-Americanism should take note that the choice facing them in their rough neighborhoods is essentially solidarity with the United States or the embrace of Jimmy Carter diplomacy or Stanley Baldwin appeasement.

Quite simply, there is now no NATO, no EU, no U.N. that can or will do anything in anyone’s hour of need.
pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

I'll tell you a story that should tell you all you need to know about Iran. A couple of years ago I met an Iranian from a mixed Christian-Muslim background. He had been raised a Christian and, though this didn't count as apostasy legally, it came a little too close for some fanatics. He was subject to regular petty harassment in addition to the normal legal restrictions on non-Muslims. After being conscripted, he was beaten by some drill-sergeants so badly that he suffered a ruptured kidney and nearly died. Nowadays he lives as a refugee and is almost penniless. Such a man might be expected to be first to the roadside to cheer on an invading US army. In fact, he was a fully-paid up subscriber to the 'it's all about oil' theory, and saw the US as a grasping and greedy power eager to rob the country of it's riches.

How could George Bush make such a waste of a hand as strong as the one he held in the wake of 9/11? That atrocity gave him almost unlimited power to refashion the world as he chose. (Imagine if Truman, Eisenhower or Nixon had enjoyed the same opportunity, let alone Kennedy or a Roosevelt). You didn't need to be Henry Kissinger to figure out how Iraq, with no fewer than three major fault-lines (one religious, two ethnic) running through it, might fare under anything other than the most severe authoritarian rule. Saddam made the country a pressure cooker and Bush took the lid off.

Rumsfeld, Cheney and Perle will remain icons of the arrogance of power for decades to come. They remind us the only thing worse than corruption is the combination of corruption with reckless stupidity.
Sadly, I have to agree with you....A great post. Bush unfortunately listened to the wrong group of advisors, who acted not out of what was in the best interests of the United States. but out of utopian fantasies of global free trade and "eliminating tyranny" and Whats best for Israel = Whats best for the USA.
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Prit
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Post by Prit »

One thing I'm curious about:

Given the uncertain nature of the exact national boundary in that area, and given the track record of the Iranians in these sorts of things, why conduct stop-and-search missions so close to disputed waters? Presumably the ship in question was on its way to/from Iraq, in which case couldn't it have been stopped closer to the Iraqi coast? And if that had been done, then any attempt by the Iranians to interfere would have occurred without question in Iraqi waters, and HMS Cornwall could have intervened before the Iranian boats got anywhere near the freighter and the boarding party.
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