Re-enactment...why??

Fiction, movies, alternate history, humor, and other non-research topics related to WWII.

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sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Reb,

Yup. Not only would you be unlikely to mistake GF for an elite unit, but you'd be be hard pressed to identify some of us as soldiers at all!

Still we had our uses. The Terrs wasted a lot of ammo revving our positions. Our A Company, 1 Battalion, pacified Mangwende South TTL by causing the local Terrs to run out of ammo in a series of long range contacts that did little damage to them (one confirmed dead only) and none to us. It took them months to resupply.

I can add to the list that I never met a bloke with a beard in a bar in Jo'burg who didn't claim he was a Selous Scout on leave.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by Reb »

Sid

"I never met a bloke with a beard in a bar in Jo'burg who didn't claim he was a Selous Scout on leave. " :D

Amen.

And they all knew the sergeant major in Bulywayo who could lift an MAG by the front of the barrel - one in each hand! :wink:

cheers
Reb
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Sani116
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Post by Sani116 »

I have to agree that within the hobby there are a few WALT's and Farbs, but within the past 3 years on the UK re-enactment circle (I dont know too much about the scene in the US) these people have been steadily pushed away - I havent seen a WALT in 2 years, FARBs are now members of the public who think its "fun" to play Herr Flick of the Gestapo, or Glenn Miller :roll: .
I used to re-enact SS, and I can tell you I have never met a Neo-Nazi Waffen SS (or Heer) re-enactor. Here in the UK those people are isolated and not required at events. Further, I feel that its a complete slap in the face to be accused of not putting much effort in at all :!: The 'video game' I am currently working on has taken 2 years to complete historically accurate content that otherwise would have taken less than a year if we had "not bothered"; I dont know a single re-enactment group in the UK who hasnt struggled to build up their knowledge through reading, contacting veterans and through practical use of kit and equipment. For instance: this year has seen a big push for re-enactors here in the UK to have accurately filled in Soldbuchs and ID material - such as Kennkarte, drivers licences etc etc.
The knowledge isnt flawed, but not everyone knows everything. Its about being a group of knowledgable people, if I didnt know something, Im sure I could direct you to someone in the group who does. This way we support eachother and the public dont go away feeling that we're jerks playing soldier in a field.

Like Ive said, I cant speak too much for America, but here in the UK it sounds like things are really different. On the social side, after public hours alot of re-enactors do like to socialise with their friends, go for a drink down a local pub....maybe head to a 40's style dance if theres one. You cant ridicule people for wanting to chill out after what amounts to a days work. I know that after a days digging schützenloch or helping to set up pyro I like to have 1 or 2 (sensible) drinks with my "Kameraden". Re-enactment is admittedly not all about history, there is a small element of making friends and having fun - it is after all a hobby - and people want to relax when the public have gone.

I can see where some people might confuse this with the attitude of "drinking clubs in cool uniforms". Which I can assure we are not about.

Tom.
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Post by pzrmeyer2 »

Personally, I don't know what all the fuss is about. If people don't like it, don't take it up as a hobby. I'm sure many strive for accuracy. So what if others use it as a club to parade around in old uniforms?

I mean, should all model builders, Risk and "Call of Duty" players be held accountable for precise accuracy?

I dont reeneact, but I have nothing against those who do and try to assist in history. If the only way of connecting with the past is to sit in some dank stacks section of the library pouring over 1st person accounts, then it would severlely limit interest and understanding.

not every average Joe needs to know the difference between a Sdkfz 251/C and a 251/D or that the GD had their cuffband on the right and the Waffen SS on the left to gain some understanding on what it might have been like to be there.

Reenectors are a tool, like the history channel, or a movie, or a book, for those to connect and learn. So long as they are not the only, or the primary, sources, I have no problem.
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Sani116
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Post by Sani116 »

pzrmeyer2 wrote:Personally, I don't know what all the fuss is about. If people don't like it, don't take it up as a hobby. I'm sure many strive for accuracy. So what if others use it as a club to parade around in old uniforms?

I mean, should all model builders, Risk and "Call of Duty" players be held accountable for precise accuracy?

I dont reeneact, but I have nothing against those who do and try to assist in history. If the only way of connecting with the past is to sit in some dank stacks section of the library pouring over 1st person accounts, then it would severlely limit interest and understanding.

not every average Joe needs to know the difference between a Sdkfz 251/C and a 251/D or that the GD had their cuffband on the right and the Waffen SS on the left to gain some understanding on what it might have been like to be there.

Reenectors are a tool, like the history channel, or a movie, or a book, for those to connect and learn. So long as they are not the only, or the primary, sources, I have no problem.
:up:
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sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi pzrmeyer,

Ditto. Well put.

Sid.
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Post by pzrmeyer2 »

Sid,

thanks for the kind words.
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Post by Commissar D, the Evil »

Yes, very well put Panzermeyer2. Fact is that reinactors serve a purpose, they're a link with the past. And who do they harm?

Best,
David
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Post by AH »

Rajin Cajun wrote:Sid I don't think anyone is giving the real hardcore reenactors crap I think everybody's problem here is the prevalent idiots that tend to make up the community. You have units whose biggest thing is going out in the field, getting loaded and shooting off blanks like they were in the Bayou. You have other reenactors as I have stated already in this thread that couldn't tell you their CO for their unit during the time period let alone basic unit history. A smaller portion are diehard Neo-Nazis and while everyone would like to deny it I have met them. What I have always found humorous is some organizations specifically bare Communists but they do not bar Neo-Nazis which I find odd since you figure having either radical group could pose a problem.

Another group is just obsessed to fill out a fantasy I can't tell you how many Waffen-SS Reenactors talk about Valhalla like they are modern day Vikings. Yes sure some guys believed in that but I don't remember so many being so suicidal, bloodthirsty, listening to Manowar and praising Thor like it was back in the hayday. I think some reenactors like to obsess over stereotypes instead of realizing a lot of German Soldiers were just like us and didn't have some Klingon like death wish.

Thankfully though we have enough squared away groups that it keeps it serious for the most part.
Please behave now.

Manowar makes good music :D .

Anyways my opinion on this subject (Not a quote of your post in particular, Raijn)

Well I ain't no reenactor myself, as I would be labeled music nazi (I play guitar in a rockband, with long hair) but I do like to read about the history, and watch movies.

I do like the fact that reenactors put pride in being correct, but it shouldnt be ridiculed, its a fantastic hobby if you are interested in the subject, it is a good and safe way to experience what it was like back then.

Every hobby has blunders in them, but (I dont want to take jabs at anyone personally) one thing that gets tiring is arm chair experts.

For instance, my big hobby is guitars, and as soon as someone gets popular you have the arm chair guys, who dissect everything about him and degrades him.

Its the same here, instead of appreciating that some likes it, I think it should be accepted and supported that someone tries to show our heritage and living history to my generation (I am 17).

Its allways easy to say stuff from the chair, and degrading everyone elses stuff, rather than doing something about it yourself.

Anyways guys, just stopped by, and wanted to give my 2cents on this subject.

Greetings and Regards,
Alex.
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Post by Rajin Cajun »

I like Manowar myself as well the point is they tend to take the Manowar fan mentality as the same as a Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht member. Last I checked they weren't suicidal nor did they have some Viking-esque bloodlust. :D
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Post by phylo_roadking »

(just reasilsed I forgot to post something here back when the mud started slinging about arm-chair experts and reenactment; for five of the seven years I worked in England in my formative years I was a Parliamentarian Sergeant-of-pike with the Sealed Knot....so I know about doing it well)
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Post by Wolfkin »

Hello!

Ok, some more thoughts here. I understand why someone would want to re-enact something that is their hobby and want to have fun with it. Like I said before, I was and still am interested in it myself. I applaud people like Tom/Sani116 who put a lot of effort and work into making everything accurate and serious. What makes this re-enactment hobby unappealing to me are the ones who are inaccurate and not serious. Because this is a serious subject. This is history and this is war. It is not a game and it is not a joke. It is something that should be taken seriously. The people doing the re-enacting should realize that they are representing soldiers from actual battles from history. So, my problem is with the “Bad Apples” who just want to hang out, drink some beers and then dress up in “cool” uniforms and pretend that they are somebody they are not. These guys are an insult to the memory of the real soldiers. You see, people, there are some things that you can have fun with and joke around with and these things are called games. Then, there are some things that must be taken seriously and these things are called military history.

The people who are seriously into Military History are the ones who spend lots of time and money researching and studying to find the truth about these events. It is not a passing phase that will fade away like fashion or the latest game but something that stays for years and years. The ones who gain interest because it is “cool” quickly fall away because their interest is not genuine. Once a new movie or game comes out they will lose interest because it is no longer “cool” and they will jump on the next latest thing to come out. They simply do not understand what it means to actually research something. Real research is not the casual reading of the odd book, research is the intense study of a topic. Perhaps sometimes it really matters on what gets one interested in the subject. Like I said before, if you got interested because of a movie or video game then perhaps that extra effort is not there. On the other hand, if you have some military experience yourself or have a family member that has military experience, then perhaps you have more than enough extra effort.

Now, I ask, please refer to my previous quote to really see where I stand. I really don’t think some really understand. War is not a game so therefore the re-enactment of it should not be treated as such. Here is my previous quote:

“The other thing is, I believe while re-enacting can give you an idea of what it was like and help you understand, that is all it will be able to do, give you an idea what it was like and nothing more. It also helps if the re-enactors actually know what they are doing and know something about the battles but most don’t seem to. I believe that in no way should someone walk away thinking that they know exactly what it was like. Because there is no way that you will from a re-enactment. Let me explain further:

Besides the obvious things like it is not real combat and there is not copious amounts of shrapnel, dust and other particles flying through the air, let me give another idea. If you really want to know what the soldiers went through do this:

March out into the middle of nowhere carrying all of your equipment, dig a trench or a series of foxholes, live in these dugouts for a week, eat and drink very little so you are hungry and thirsty all the time, wear the same clothes for the whole week, do not shower or clean yourself for the whole week, sleep very little so you are tired all the time, drink and eat out of the same dirty utensils for the whole week because you can't wash them...and all at the same time y'all are supposed to be fighting a war too!

Now go back and do the same thing in the winter to get an idea of how the soldiers felt during the winter! Do it when it is cold and there is a lot of snow. I get a kick when I hear about an "Ardennes" re-enactment and it is in the middle of the summer! The re-enactors do a two hour battle scene and then go and rest and snack and such. The real soldiers did not have that luxury. The real infantry of WWII LIVED in their foxholes, dugouts and such. It was not an easy life. Yes, tents were issued but for obvious reasons, well at least I hope it is obvious, y'all did not pitch a tent on the front line in plain view of the enemy. This is why foxholes, trenches and other dugouts were used. They were less visible. In this case the tents were used as the roof portion of the dugout to keep the rain out.”

So, if one really wants to experience what it was like to be there then one should realize that it has to be taken seriously and correctly. I have problems with the people who do not realize this and do not take it seriously and correctly. I also have problems with people who always say that the hobby can be just for fun and does not have to be taken seriously. These people should limit themselves to movies and video games. Also, would it be better to be known as an Armchair General/Armchair Expert or a young, immature, illiterate and uneducated kid that should stick to games? By the way, what would you call an Armchair General/Armchair Expert that does indeed have Military Experience?

Cheers,

Wolfkin
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Wolfkin, you've actually made me question something else regarding reenactment LOL I'd love to know that of all the reenactors around the world - how many have served in uniform/in the field? Or had an interest in the history before the hardware/uniforms? Thinking here of your point about what REAL reenactment should be - how many of them have actually HAD to dig a whole in the ground and live in it - under fire, under threat or at the very least under discipline?

Which is why I've personally always preferred the "period" reenactors to anything 20th century - because they front up fairly to the limitations of the activity, or are in the main trying to "recreate" not "reenact" To reacquire the technical skills of construction and use. There's a slight but very important difference. For example - I know one group of period Viking reenactors here in Northern Ireland who at their big annual event on the shores of Strangford Lough try to reenact everything - including grinding their own barley for bread....or going hungry! And why the enthusiasm? They are - to a man (and woman) - under 30! There does seem to be an age division generally between those who "reenact" and those for whom its truly a lifestyle thing when they reenact/recreate. Similarly with the Sealed Knot of my experience 15 uears ago; their weekend events were huge family affairs in costume and setting - exactly like the armies and camps of the period!
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Post by Sani116 »

Well, I have just come back from a 36 hour living history tactical exercise. Aimed at doing exactly what alot of you guys want to see us doing. And for the most part, helps us to appreciate and learn a little bit about life for the German (and Russian) soldiers. Although not quite a week - 36 hours of it IS TOUGH on you, and gives you an insite into what a week would be like, and makes you scared of the thought of a soldier having had to do this constantly for several years.

These are some images that various groups have posted on a re-enactment forum. The scenario is Russia 43.


Image

Digging in: - note some of the equipment is ditched but these guys carried it in and started to dig a reserve line stellung.

Image


The signals unit which was operating out of the back of a captured French Renault.

Image


More to follow shortly. Right now Im tired and want to crawl into a bed that doesnt have 2 other blokes living it, and doesnt have a roof that leaks (Im talking about a zeltbahn - we were lucky though, the guys 'on the line' had swimming pool trenches by 3am - at least we had some shelter).
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Post by Rajin Cajun »

Phylo to answer your question at least for the California Historical Group here is a link of all their members who either have served or are currently serving now in the Sandbox.

http://www.chgww2.com/service.htm

The 12th SS even has two brothers who served in the German Army.
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