Soviet plans to attack Germany before 22 June 1941

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Soviet plans to attack Germany before 22 June 1941

Post by panzermahn » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:59 am

Hi,

I was reading a very good book by Dr. Heinz Margenheimer (Hitler's War: Could Germany have won the Second World War?) and in the first part, Dr. Margenheimer mentioned recent research by a Russian historians shows that the Red Army capable of mobilizing a total of 303 divisions when the Germans attack (around half of it were already deployed).

Doesn't this prove that Germany was actually outnumbered by the sheer immense manpower of the Red Army with the total combine divisions of Army Group North, Center and South of 128 and 2/3 of a divisions when the Wehrmacht attacks on 22nd June 1941?

Dr. Margenheimer also mentioned that even if the Red Army outnumbered the Wehrmacht during Barbarossa, it doesn't mean that the Germany's offensive against Bolshevik Russia was a preventive war in the truest sense but it was more like a war between two aggressors instead of the traditional establishment (propagated by numerous Soviet apologists such as John Erickson) that Soviet Russia were suprised by a treacherous attack from Germany.

The author also mentioned that there were 3 plans of Soviet offensive against Germany prior to 22nd June 1941. The last one were dated may 1941. The author of these plans were major general Vasilevsky.

Does anyone had more infos about these Soviet offensive plans against Germany prior to June 22nd 1941?

Thanks

Panzermahn

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Post by Pirx » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:25 am

Thare is a lot of books and other sources that war between Hitler and Stalin was a question of time. But personaly i doubt that Stalin could attack Hitler before 22nd June 1941. More probably was september or even spring 1942.
And once i wrote on forums, that this time each country had plans of war with neighbour. For example Poland had hipotetical plan of war with Germany in 1938, also France had such plans ect.
What i know about January 1941 were made soviet HQ exercise, gen. Kulik as a commander of blue (Germans) and gen. Zhukov as a comander of red (soviets). Later they change sides and repeat exercise. Raport from this exercise was present to Stalin and probably he agreed with officers to delay war with IIIrd reich for better preparation.
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Post by Rajin Cajun » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:24 am

The groundwork was laid for plans but Stalin knew the USSR wouldn't be ready for a war until 1943 because the nation was still industrializing.
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Post by DXTR » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:51 am

Most nations, who have a record for being invaded, have plans for an attack on their neighbours. A few years back WAPA plans were dug out from the archives. They showed immense preperations for an attack on the west. The interesting part is that they rested on the notion that the west would attack first.

That USSR had plans for an attack on Germany is hardly surprising in this context. Not to have a reserached plan for such actions is naive from a military perspective.

Now I wouldn't call Stalin a peacemaker (unless it came through the NKVD). But I would be cautious in claiming that such plans would put USSR and Germany on equal moral standing. Germany was the agressor, we have history to show this, however no solid evidence have been provided, except from the odd dubious russian researcher that Stalin had any real date or intentions for an attack on Germany. But who knows what would have happened if German strength had continue to grow and without an attack on USSR. Perhaps Stalin eventually would have launched a preemptive strike. Prior to barbarossa, the Soviet Union under Stalin rule was an inward gazing regime, bend on consolidating Stalins power.

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Post by phylo_roadking » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:59 am

Doesn't this prove that Germany was actually outnumbered by the sheer immense manpower of the Red Army with the total combine divisions of Army Group North, Center and South of 128 and 2/3 of a divisions when the Wehrmacht attacks on 22nd June 1941?
You have to remember that the German Blitzkrieg did in Russia what it had done in France and Poland before it - removed the Red Air Force's prime fighting capability AND the Red Army's frontline-capable armoured forces in the the earliest hours and days of the campaign. Very quickly the Red Army found itself fielding armoured vehicles that were MANY years out of date, same with their air support.

Blitzkrieg also chopped the Red Army - which should have been a unified military command in the field - into pockets and salients, surrounding and bypassing hundreds of thousands if not millions of troops in the field, cutting them off from supply and orders.

Instead of facing the Red Army's combined manpower on paper, in the first weeks and months of Barbarossa the Germans succeeded in ensuring they were instead facing disparate commands cut off from their headquarters, with no coordination or overall view of the campaign, no supply route, no air support and no path of retreat.

Enhance this problem with the fact that weapons of ALL types were in short supply, newer tank designs hadn't started flowing out of the factories yet, and the same with modern aircraft - in their case further complicated by factories being relocated further to the East and dozens of new production lines being set up from scratch.

"Paper" strength is never what it appears to be, and the Red Army was worse than many; and the rolling effect of the continual wave of German victories through 1941 didn't give it a chance to stop the rot until that momentum was checked.
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Post by phylo_roadking » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:02 pm

"Paper" strength is never what it appears to be
An excellent example would be the People's Liberation Army, of the 1950's and early 1960s with its cavalry divisions; I used to have a beautiful pic of a Chinese cavalry unit on parade, each man wearing his gas mask....but not the horses LMAO How long would it take for THESE "mobile" divisions to be converted into....Infantry??? :D :D :D
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Post by Alex Coles » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:41 pm

Yep. It's not always paper strength; Hitler always liked so see lots of divisions, rather than a few, strong divisions, so rather than reinforcing divisions, the logical solution he made more.

303 divisions? I'm not saying this is wrong, but some russian divisions were refitting at the time of Barbarossa, getting up to strength, and the 'Western' Soviet Front was barely established.

Also add to this, the whole Red Air Force, the strongest in the world, numbers wise got trashed almost instantly by german planes and because supporting planes is a vital ingredient to blitzkrieg, this could be fulfilled. I have also heard of Russia planning to attack Germany, somewhere around Spring 1942 but I suppose this would of failed.
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Post by Pirx » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:59 pm

I see this in that way:
Stalin wants to be sure that he win, Hitler believes on his own luck, fate or something. i guess that was reason that Hitler launched strike on USSR with unprepared wehrmacht, and Stalin still had doubts about Red Army so he wait.
And i of course don't believe that there was exactly date of Soviet invasion, however plans were made since 1939.
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pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:27 pm

But I would be cautious in claiming that such plans would put USSR and Germany on equal moral standing
Would you mind clarifying this statement for me?

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Post by panzermahn » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:02 pm

DXTR wrote:Most nations, who have a record for being invaded, have plans for an attack on their neighbours. A few years back WAPA plans were dug out from the archives. They showed immense preperations for an attack on the west. The interesting part is that they rested on the notion that the west would attack first.

That USSR had plans for an attack on Germany is hardly surprising in this context. Not to have a reserached plan for such actions is naive from a military perspective.

Now I wouldn't call Stalin a peacemaker (unless it came through the NKVD). But I would be cautious in claiming that such plans would put USSR and Germany on equal moral standing. Germany was the agressor, we have history to show this, however no solid evidence have been provided, except from the odd dubious russian researcher that Stalin had any real date or intentions for an attack on Germany. But who knows what would have happened if German strength had continue to grow and without an attack on USSR. Perhaps Stalin eventually would have launched a preemptive strike. Prior to barbarossa, the Soviet Union under Stalin rule was an inward gazing regime, bend on consolidating Stalins power.
Dr. Magenheimer mentioned that these Soviet attack plans were far from being operational plans of general staff of the armies in the world (like the US Navy theoretical plans to attack Pearl Harbor in the 1920s). One of the main reasons that these attack plans were not normal operational plans normally planned by general staffs of the armies in the world is because Uncle Joe would never condone Red Army general staffs to prepare operational planning (look what happen to Marshal Tukachevsky in the 20s and 30s) without political backing from the Politburo. Major General Vasilevsky's plans actually carried Uncle Joe's monogram which indicates Uncle Joe's approval of the Soviet offensive plans.

In fact, Dr. Magenheimer's main point is that the war in eastern front was a war between two aggressors (in fact he disagrees with Suvorov's thesis that Barbarossa is a preventive war). Russian historians such as Valery Danilov, Mikhail Meltyukov published some really good research about Soviet offensive plans prior to June 22 1941

Regards
Panzermahn

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Post by Rajin Cajun » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:10 pm

Stalin didn't want to invade Germany? Are we forgetting the Communist Rebels he funded to overthrow the government? :shock:
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Post by pzrmeyer2 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:04 am

Rajin Cajun wrote:Stalin didn't want to invade Germany? Are we forgetting the Communist Rebels he funded to overthrow the government? :shock:

exactly.

pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:29 am

pzrmeyer2 wrote:
But I would be cautious in claiming that such plans would put USSR and Germany on equal moral standing
Would you mind clarifying this statement for me?
Hey Paulus, I answered yours, won't you answer mine?

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Post by Paulus II » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:17 pm

Since the quote isn't mine and I don't see how I could clarify someone else's statement, no, I won't clarify it.

Why do I feel like I'm back in Kindergarten now?

pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:51 pm

Paulus II wrote:Since the quote isn't mine and I don't see how I could clarify someone else's statement, no, I won't clarify it.

Why do I feel like I'm back in Kindergarten now?
ya know, you're right! my apologies .All you commun--er, socialist-er, leftists all sound the same to me...teddibly soddy old boy

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