More poop on Grass

Fiction, movies, alternate history, humor, and other non-research topics related to WWII.

Moderator: Commissar D, the Evil

pzrmeyer2

More poop on Grass

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

Perspectives on Grass...

Saw this today online, encompasses a lot of what was previously brought up here about Grass....

(Note: To give perspective, FrontPageMag is a generally "conservative" e-pub in the USA with a strong pro-Israel bent.)

SS Man of the Left
By Stephen Brown and Jacob Laksin
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 28, 2006


In his voluminous political writings throughout the years, Gunter Grass always insisted that his role, as an artist and an intellectual of note, was to remind Germany of its profound national shame -- the Nazi era -- and “keep the wound open.” But earlier this month it emerged that for over sixty years the Nobel Prize-winning novelist had been concealing just such a wound from public view.


Grass stirred worldwide controversy when he admitted that he had been a member of Hitler's notorious Waffen SS in the final months of World War II. Having set himself up for decades as his country's moral conscience, in which capacity he was always urging his fellow countrymen to “come clean” about their wartime past and seek forgiveness, the moralizing Grass stood revealed as a hypocrite of colossal proportions.



But the timing of Grass’s confession is not inexplicable. It appears to be a cynical public relations ploy to promote sales of his forthcoming autobiography, Peeling the Onion. Hence Grass made his startling disclosure in a two-page interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, one of Germany's leading national newspapers. The first print run of his book has since sold out.



Grass’s revelation adds a new twist to the personal narrative he has carefully fashioned over the years. Heretofore, the conventional wisdom had it that Grass, like many of his generation, was drafted into the Nazi army, the Wehrmacht, serving as an anti-aircraft soldier, but was in no sense a true-believer in the Nazi cause. Grass did nothing to discourage the prevailing view and much to bolster it. He had long stressed that he and other German youth were “too young to have been a Nazi, but old enough to have been formed by the Nazi regime.”



Grass now tells a different story. Though he maintains that he was drafted into the 10th SS Panzer Division “Frundsberg,” part of the Waffen SS, serving from September 1944 until the war's end, he now concedes that “Germans joined with enthusiasm and with popularity.” Grass further says that he himself had eagerly volunteered to join the Nazi U-boat fleet, only to be rejected due to his young age. And so far from rebelling at the idea of SS service, Grass says he considered joining the SS the ideal career move, thinking the elite military units would both provide him with an exit from his despised bourgeois home and a direct route to Hitler, to whom the teenaged Grass remained loyal until the Nuremberg war crimes trials.



At first blush, Grass’s conversion from SS man and Hitler admirer to leftist icon and relentless foe of capitalism, German bourgeois society and especially America, may seem incongruous. But as German commentator Jens Jessen, writing in the newspaper Die Zeit, notes, there is a common thread underlying his political weltanschauung. Jessen writes that in his work "Grass points out with verve the anti-bourgeois attitude of the Nazis" and the fascination of the Nazi 'Volksgemeinschaft' (people's community), in which there are no ‘class differences and religious darkness.’” At 78 years of age, Jessen darkly comments, the Nobel laureate still appears like someone “who could again immediately fall into another ideology if only it were anti-bourgeoisie enough and promised an end to the class society.”



Nor is that the only link between Grass’s ardently leftist present and his Nazi past. For instance, there is his strident contempt for Catholicism and the authority of the Catholic Church -- a driving theme in the Nazi persecution of German Catholics. It was a contempt that manifested itself most sharply in the 1950s, when Grass, then in the dawn of his international celebrity, tirelessly maligned the conservative Chancellor of West Germany Konrad Adenauer, a Catholic. Grass unabashedly regarded Adenauer as a worse evil than the Nazis who preceded him in power. Recalling the era, Grass once sneered, “We were under Adenauer, ghastly, with all those lies, with all that Catholic fug. The society of that day was fed by a kind of stuffiness that never existed under the Nazis." Similarly, Grass ridiculed Adenauer for exhibiting what he called a “philistinism [that] hadn't existed even under the Nazis.” As Jessen observes, such utterances suggest that Grass never freed himself "from the hocus-pocus of Nazi propaganda.”



It’s certainly true that the passage of time has not made Grass appreciably less susceptible to the allure of authoritarian rulers, even if left-wing dictators have replaced the Fuehrer in the spotlight of his imagination. In the 1980s, Grass happily sang the praises of the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, blaming it’s eventual downfall on his preferred bête noire, the United States. Not a Communist in his own right, Grass nonetheless found that he had no difficulty making the Soviet Union’s case when the United States proposed to deploy cruise missiles in Germany to defend the country against Soviet SS-20 ballistic missiles. “A people that fifty years later is still suffering the consequences of its failure to resist Hitler’s seizure of power ought to have learned to recognize different but comparable dangers before it is too late and thus look upon the right to resist as a democratic imperative,” Grass intoned in 1987. Thus did the United States become, for Grass, the effective successor of the Third Reich.



Communist Cuba, on the other hand, earned his admiration. As late as 1993, when well-documented tales of Castro’s terror had thinned the ranks of his apologists, Grass was still touting the glories of the revolution, claiming that Cubans “were less likely to notice the absence of liberal rights” owing to the “self-respect” they had purportedly gained. Most famously, Grass nursed an abiding affection for communist East Germany, becoming a leading opponent of German unification. Unwilling to see the GDR join the West, with its abominable capitalism, Grass cleaved to the dream of a confederation of two German states, a “third way” that allowed him to indulge his hopes for a socialist utopia that history had denied. Parallels to Grass’s Nazi youth were unmistakable. Just as Nazi propaganda captivated him in his youth, so the socialist vision was now too appealing to surrender.



German voters suffered from no similar delusions. They unanimously voted to make Germany whole. Grass was unmoved. Instead of deferring to the wishes of his countrymen, the novelist took to mercilessly savaging post-unification Germany. It was, he claimed, forever tainted by the atrocities of Nazi Germany. Worse still, by allying itself with the West, and particularly the United States, Germany had lost its “essential substance.”



Here again Grass betrayed something of his former self. Once a soldier in the Nazi quest for Germanic racial purity, Grass now demanded that Germany adhere to an economic and cultural purity, one in accordance with his socialist dreams and his contempt of the United States. Paul Hollander once wrote that “[f]or Grass, as for many other critics, the rejection of the United States and the rejection of his own society became intertwined; he detested West German society primarily because it was becoming Americanized, that is, materialistic, greedy, and polluted physically as well as spiritually.” German unification merely fanned the flames of his hatred.



Neither the terrorist attacks of September 11 nor the U.S.-led “War on Terror” have prompted a change in his thinking. On the contrary, Grass’s disdain for the United States has, if anything, only increased in recent years. In a 2003 op-ed for London’s Guardian, Grass accused the United States of inventing the threat of terrorism. “We know how people create enemies where none exists,” Grass wrote. The only serious threat to world peace, Grass held, came from the United States and its president: “It [the US] stands there in its hubris, unashamed and dangerous to the rest of the world. The current US president is the perfect expression of this common danger we face.”



Insofar as Grass acknowledges the reality of terrorism, he reposes the blame squarely on the United States. In a 2003 interview with the German newsmagazine, Der Spiegel, Grass lectured that “the deep reason for the increasing terrorism” was “disappointment” born of poverty. Informed that the September 11 hijackers hailed from wealthy backgrounds, Grass refused to budge. “In any case,” he retorted, “war is the wrong reaction to terrorism.”



On this point -- America’s supposed culpability for worldwide terrorism -- Grass has stayed consistent. In a June address before the annual International PEN Congress, an international association of writers, Grass made a point of inveighing against “the hubris of the world's only superpower” and professed his indignation that “[a]rmed force is used by this superpower to defeat the terrorism it is itself responsible for.” Grass then appealed for the United States to be viewed in its appropriate light: as the moral equal of terrorists everywhere. “Although we meticulously keep count of the victims of terror attacks, terrible though their number is, nobody bothers to count the dead caused by American bombs or rocket attacks,” Grass groused.



Coming from an admitted member of the Waffen SS, such moral equivalence may seem beyond perverse. Yet it is entirely characteristic for the world-famous intellectual who migrated from one political extreme to the other without the intervention of reflection and who has remained faithful to only one guiding idea--that the West, as symbolized by the United States, is always in the wrong.



In the gloaming of his career, it would be unrealistic to expect Grass to reconsider the convictions that have cemented his reputation as a writer and, less deservedly, a political prophet. It is doubtful, in any case, that he is open to persuasion. Reflecting on his support East Germany in the late 90s, Grass maintained that whatever else was recorded by history, he had been right to take his stand with the communist regime. “I believe it is a good thing that a writer does not sit on the side of the victors,” said Grass. From his time in the service of the SS to his decades-long romance with communist states, it is indeed the one thing of which Grass can never be accused.
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Post by phylo_roadking »

NOW we're back as far as September 1944! Thats 9 months. hardly the "final couple" mentioned originally. What was "frundsberg's" record in those 9 months???

Also - its not the first time I've hear ex-Nazi Era germans ( best way to phrase it at the minute...) admire Castro's Cuba. His "casto-ist" party society is almost like the ideal NSDAP society they envisioned once upon a time.....
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
User avatar
AAA
Contributor
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:43 am
Location: Latvia

Post by AAA »

Aha. Any earlier and it'll turn out Grass was shooting at paras at Arnhem. :D
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Castro's Cuba may have its faults but the people are amongst the best-educated and most culturally-aware anywhere in the Western Hemisphere and would be better-off were it not for the US blockade and sanctions. So he jailed and disappeared a few critics: big deal! We're currently governed by "democratic" leaders who think nothing of killing tens of thousands of people to retain their hold on power.

OK, so I am arguing moral relativism but it is a compelling argument. Castro is not a very nice man but God help Cuba if the Miami-Cubans and the heirs of Lansky and Giancana get their grubby hands on the place after Fidel Castro goes. Some say that no US administration - even that of Jimmy Carter - ever felt able to recognise Cuba because of fear of the Mob, who still claim to own a lot of real estate from Batista days, when the place was run as a de facto brothel for a certain kind of lowbrow American tourist who can now be found in places like Cancún.

One hopes that proud Cubans will resist plans to turn Cuba back into a brothel. Of course, many Cubans of African ancestry do not feel included in Castro's 'utopia' so they are bound to welcome with open arms the kind of 'African-American' sub-culture foisted on African-American - and White - youth by the US entertainment industry. They already do a brisk trade in 'Hip-Hop' music that exhorts young Black men to conform to white racist stereotypes by beating their women, killing homosexuals and doing a lot of Class A drugs before committing suicide-by-cop. Malcolm X, Dr Luther King, Huey Newton and Tupac Shakur must be rolling in their graves.

Anyway, it won't be long before Cuban youth in general falls prey to this insidious form of lobotomy-by-music video and gets too stoned to go anything about the return of their country to its dystopian condition under Batista.

PK

PK
Last edited by Paddy Keating on Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Post by phylo_roadking »

o feck ive just been given a freebie to Cancun....:-(
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Take some rubbers...
michael kenny
Associate
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 5:09 am
Location: Northern England

Post by michael kenny »

Paddy Keating wrote:Castro's Cuba may have its faults but the people are amongst the best-educated and most culturally-aware anywhere in the Western Hemisphere
Its life expectancy and infant mortality rates are pretty much the same as the USA's. Its doctor-to-patient ratios stand comparison to any country in Western Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 232628.stm

Another view:


Cuba challenges America and Europe
By Nisa Islam Muhammad

Apr 21, 2004,


Cuban President Fidel Castro has challenged the American and European governments to duplicate its ability to educate and provide health professionals to serve the needs of impoverished people around the world.

The small island nation, only 90 miles from Florida, is capable of maintaining more than 16,000 health professionals working in Third World nations.

In a speech March 24, Pres. Castro noted that just from Cienfuegos province, one of the smallest on the island, nearly 600 of its doctors, dentists and technicians are part of those efforts.

"Let the U.S. and European governments try and find 500 doctors to carry out similar missions. They won’t find them, because they don’t have them; that human capital must be formed," he said.

The countries receiving this humanitarian aid welcome it with open arms, but others have criticized Cuba for doing this especially as it relates to the work they’ve done helping Venezuela.

"They are ashamed and protest as if it were a crime or a conspiracy to take care of millions of excluded Venezuelans," said Pres. Castro. "If they (the doctors) are Cuban agents, why don’t they send agents from the United States who are capable of living where the poor do, and practicing medicine in order to save so many lives among the marginalized people in those barrios?"

This work of sending health professionals around the world has led Nation of Islam Minister of Health and Human Services Abdul Alim Muhammad to see Cuba as "the most compassionate country on earth."

"What does Cuba get for sending doctors around the world? They get nothing. They really care about people. They really believe that people deserve and have a right to health care. They believe people deserve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," he told The Final Call.

"When I first visited Cuba in 1995, they had 50,000 doctors for their 10 million people. Now, they have 70-80,000 doctors for 12 million people. They don’t need any more doctors. They have a doctor in every community, school and factory. They have the best doctor-patient ratio in the world, with one doctor for every 200 people."

The ratio in the United States is far worse.

"According to the National Medical Association there are only 23,000 Black doctors in practice to serve 40 million Black people. How many patients is that per doctor? It’s one doctor for every 2,000 patients. That’s Third World health standards. We can’t elevate the health conditions of our people with that ratio," he explained.

"For Whites, the ratio is one doctor for every 300 people. Whites have six times greater access to a health professional than Blacks," Dr. Muhammad pointed out. "There are whole areas around the country where there are no Black doctors."


Most doctors agree that people tend to get medical care from people who look like them and are more likely to relate to their own experiences.


Dr. Muhammad said, "We don’t have the manpower to do what needs to be done to improve our health. We need six or seven times as many doctors as we have now. How will we get them? This speaks to the greatness of what Cuba is doing."

What Cuba is also doing is offering to educate and train Black doctors from the United States for free. President Castro is offering a free medical school education for students committed to serving the poor.

Pastors for Peace is working with the Cuban medical school to recruit students. The country is offering 500 scholarships each year to students to attend medical school in Cuba. The group held a conference in Washington, D.C. March 27 to encourage students to apply.

"In 1998, we developed the Comprehensive Health Care Delivery Program," Lazaro Herrera, First Secretary of Cuban Interests Section in Washington, D.C. told The Final Call. "We responded to the suffering of Central America, which requested international aid. Cuba gave free medical personnel that would be there as long as necessary. We now have more than 3,000 health professionals in Africa and Latin America. We teach people to take care of themselves and we use natural medicine."

He continued: "We’ve treated more than five million people over the world. We’ve performed more than 28,000 deliveries and more than 48,000 surgical procedures. In Haiti, 75 percent of the people are treated by Cuban doctors. We helped to reduce the infant mortality rate in that country from 80 deaths per 1,000 live births to now 28 deaths per 1,000 live births. We’ve saved 90,000 lives in Haiti alone."

Haiti is part of a growing list of countries receiving aid, which includes Gambia, Niger, Zimbabwe, Ghana, Honduras, Belize, Guatemala and Paraguay.

"We have 20 medical schools that produce 1,000 new doctors each year. We’re working on opening a medical school in Africa with Cuban professors to better serve the people there," Mr. Herrera said."

-----------------------------------------------------------



Just wait and see what happens when they are colonised by Macdonalds and Starbucks!
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Post by phylo_roadking »

Not only good medical care on a per-head basis, bt for many years the US embargo prevented the import of a LOT of modern medines, antibiotics etc., so the Cubans have developed a lot of low-tech alternatives. I remember a spate of articles about ten years ago about Western medics going to stdy these because they included a number of cancer therapies with a remarkable success rate. Never heard any reports back though.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

The ratio in the United States is far worse.

"According to the National Medical Association there are only 23,000 Black doctors in practice to serve 40 million Black people. How many patients is that per doctor? It’s one doctor for every 2,000 patients. That’s Third World health standards. We can’t elevate the health conditions of our people with that ratio," he explained.

"For Whites, the ratio is one doctor for every 300 people. Whites have six times greater access to a health professional than Blacks," Dr. Muhammad pointed out. "There are whole areas around the country where there are no Black doctors."

Most doctors agree that people tend to get medical care from people who look like them and are more likely to relate to their own experiences.
this is racism of the 1st order. So, I'm supposed to have black role models like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, but "they" can't go to a white physician?
User avatar
Rosselsprung
Enthusiast
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:25 pm

Post by Rosselsprung »

Dr. Muhammad from the Nation of Islam hardly seems like the most objective of sources for the problem.
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

AAA wrote:Aha. Any earlier and it'll turn out Grass was shooting at paras at Arnhem. :D
I think Gunther Grass must have been one of the recruits to the new Frundsburg Division. The original Frundsburg Division was so badly mauled in Normandy and in the Falaise Gap and during the retreat through France that only enough fit officers and men could be found to form a battle group in Holland in September 1944. Let's start retracing the history of the Frundsburg Division after its reformation in October 1944 as nobody has done this in any of the Grass-related threads here so far. By doing so, we may come closer to knowing what he did in WW2.

Kampfgruppe Frundsburg, under the command of Heinz Harmel, was formed in the Arnhem area on 12.9.1944 and was scheduled to move to Aachen as cadre for the new Frundsburg Division. However, fate intervened in the shape of 1st Allied Airborne Army on 17.9.1944 and KG Frundsburg was detailed to try to take back the Arnhem bridge from Johnny Frost's 2 PARA boys.

After taking part in the counterattack against Horrocks' XXX Corps and some mopping-up operations, KG Frundsburg was sent to Geilenkirchen on 27.10.1944 and absorbed into the new division. It is likely that Gunther Grass was at Geilenkirchen undergoing his basic training. After that, he would have trained as a tank gunner. Now, was he a tank gunner or just a gunner?

In other words, did Grass serve with SS-Panzer-Rgt "Langemarck" or SS-Panzer-Artillerie-Rgt 10? On 3.1.1945, the Langemarck Regiment, which had been reduced to a single battalion, was increased to two battalions, with Panther V and Panzer IV tanks. The division was on standby for Operation Zahnarzt, which was cancelled on 4.1.1945. Frundsburg then moved to the Haguenauwald where the division deployed along the Rhine in preparation for an advance to reinforce the Gambsheim bridgehead created by SS-Obergruppenführer von dem Bach Zalewski's XIV SS-Korps. The division spearheaded the assault on 16.1.1945.

Panther Vs of I./SS-Panzer-Rgt 10 "Langemarck", under the command of SS-Stubaf Tetsch, engaged US forces on the road from Offendorf to Herrlisheim and lost one tank as well as the OC of 3./SS-Pz-Rgt 10 KIA. I./SS-Panzer-Rgt withdrew to Offendorf. Later that day, two Panthers from 6./SS-Panzer-Rgt 10, led by SS-Ostuf Bachmann, adjutant of I./SS-Panzer-Rgt 10 on a motorcycle, moved into Herrlisheim with some infantry support with Panzerfausts and occupied the crossroads in the town centre.

Bachmann's ad hoc kampfgruppe destroyed several Shermans, captured sixty or so American soldiers and liberated two dozen German prisoners. In addition, they captured four Shermans intact with their crews and sent these back to the rear. They then destroyed two more American tanks. Bachmann requested support and his regiment sent six Panther Vs, which expelled the surviving US armour from Herrlisheim. Was Gunther Grass involved in the Battle of Herrlisheim? Someone should simply ask him.

I am going out to dinner now but will pick up the thread later, when Frundsberg was transferred to the Eastern Front...unless someone else wants to step with a breakdown of their operations and locations?

PK
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Post by phylo_roadking »

Quite active enough so far Paddy! He's not going to be able to pass this off as latrine-digger 2nd class or anything.....
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Funny how little interest the Gunther Grass topic excites once stripped of hyperbole and seen from a perspective that requires some actual knowledge of Waffen-SS campaign history! I would have thought that somebody might have contributed some more Frundsburg history in the past few days.

Anyone?

PK
Hans Weber
Enthusiast
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:48 am

Post by Hans Weber »

Hello

Afaik, the active participation of Grass in combat is limited to the time frame February to May 1945. He said that he is unable to reconstruct much of what happened, as if the film inside of his head suffers permanent dammage.

If so, the above outline, though correct in the broad sense, is not relevant to the Grass story. Frundsberg moved from the Herrlisheim bridgehead to the Eastern Front and remained there for the rest of the war.

It is not likely that Grass was undergoing basic training at Geilenkirchen as well, as this was at the frontline and heavily fought over. Even the Germans at this stage tried to instruct their recruits in areas not under direct attack. He probably was in an E.u.A. unit or in the FEB unit when he got into the Waffen SS in autumn 1944 and stayed there for some months.

Also the elite status of Frundsberg has to be taken with a grain of salt. A recent biography by Jörn Roes "Freiwillig in den Krieg" tells the story about a LAH man ending up with Frundsberg in early 45. He was dismayed by the ill disciplined climate and the unprofessional attitude in this division contrary to what he had lived before.

The exploits of Bachmann in Herrlisheim have to be seen in the bigger context, too. He does ommit that the major share of the destruction of American armour in the fights over this bridgehead has to go to KG von Lüttichau, made up by veterans of II./Pz. Rgt. 2, Panzer Brigade 106 and some tank destroyer outfits and a Flak battalion. They destroyed approx. 50 tanks and they were there ten days before Frundsberg crossed the Rhine. This in contrast to the dozen Shermans captured by Frundsberg when the disorientated Americans were already cut off in Herrlisheim. One veteran of Pz. Rgt. 2 later said that his guys had tears in their eyes when they saw a the Panther Abteilung of a Waffen SS arrive with brand new material, handled so inexpertly that they already suffered losses in the assembly area. Only their officers seemed to have had an idea on armoured warfare.

As always, the truth has many sides.


Cheers
Hans
User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil »

Well, we all know how little interest the Commissar has in S.S. units. In the case of 10th S.S. this is hampered even further because the only reference book in my library is Tieke's "In the Firestorm of the Last Years if the War".
From what I've gathered, Frundsberg arrived at Stettin Altdamn on February 10th, 1945 as part of "Operation Sonnenwende" and was in the area of Stargard in Pomerania through February 24th. Elements of the division attacked through Shoningstahl and Sallenthin on February 17th, 1945, but the entire Sallenthin-Muscherin Line was given up on Februray 19th and Operation Sonnenwende itself was abandoned on Februray 21st.

This was the Division's first committment to Pomerania. The second was on March 2nd, 1945. There they ran into one of my favorite Soviet Units, the 2nd Guards Tank Corps (Definitely not a unit you could take excessive liberties with!) and defended Naugard. Frundsberg finally disengaged and was transfered to Frankfurt on the Oder around March 11th or 12th.

The point of all of this is that as one of the few S.S Panzer Divisions fighting in Pomerania, their existence wasn't exactly peacefull.....

Best,
~D, the EviL
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....
Post Reply