ALL governments do that, and many a LOT worse than the Nazis. Just look at the institutionalised immorality in the Kennedy White House, for example....
Governments say what the voters want to hear. Sometimes they even make the VOTERS live up to it. Buts there are perks to being in charge...
The Salon Kitty was unique in that its CLIENTELLE was selected too, ranking military officers and foreign diplomats. The average joe, no matter how wealthy, couldn't get past its "club' rules on the door.....Mind you, given that the 1930s was the REAL heyday of espionage in Europe, am tempted to say that ANY diplomat who went there probably went there in FULL knowledge or assumption. Lets face it, even the average german citizen knew about the gestapo's passive monitoring of all phone lines - William Shirer when an American journalist in Berlin confirmed this was an open secret - so NO diplomatic worth his salt would be sent to a totalitarian state capital without being told and KNOWING his pillow talk was being monitored LOL.
Its lost now in the mists of time and piles of burnt files in 1945, but I'd LOVE to know what "secrets" were overheard LOL really useful ones....or ones they WANTED to be got across....
phylo
Did World War II Cause a Lasting Change in Sexual Mores?
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phylo_roadking
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Michael N. Ryan
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Wiretaps were Goering's FA or Research Section. No one in nazi Germany could tap a phone without Goering's approval.
And I must admit from what you're talking you are very scinical.
Certainly I have read about JFK's antics. They're disgusting. I even envision what might have happened if they had become public knowledge.
In one of my projects Kennedy gets outed and there are consequences.
At the same time we Americans had some Great Presidents who fell from grace but managed to get back to grace. Men like Grover Cleveland who was the last Democrat I would ever vote for for president. He fathered an illegitimate child but provided for him. He married a girl half his age while president. Then there is Chester Arther who as President was the most likeable party animal who ever occupied the white house and would be the man to see if one wished to set up a social meeting but no dirt came of him. Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings is interesting reading but from what I have been reading of the scriptures this is an acceptable relationship providing certain conditions are met. Jefferson met those terms. He freed Hemmings and their children. Racists have more to dislike him for than anyone else for the relationship.
Politicians are by their nature crooks. The best way for people to keep their governments honest is to keep on looking over their backs and keep up the heat.
There are a lot of shocking things done by Governments and people in those governments. In the Soviet Union, NKVD chief Beria for his hobby of abducting teenage girls of the streets of Moscow to rape them. Sadam Hussein and his eldest son did bad things a lot like that from what I have been picking up. I have read some stories about members of the Inquesition which if true would be just as vile.
However this is the discussion of what Government bodies do. And in many ways Nazi policies and nazi public imagery were sharp contrast.
Much of what the nazis publicly said is used by Liberals today as bloody shirts to promote acceptence or legitimization of their own agenda. Anyone who disagrees with them gets equated with the nazis. But whatthe nazis quietly did is kept hush. In many ways they're the first in Western civilization to promote undermining of morals among children. (though at least they had a purpose behind their actions unlike today's lot).
They promised to clean up Germany's moral environment, which they did in peace time but undid when the war came. (Which is where I base my statements about them). They enacted a lot of anti-family policies. But then again some families fell apart not from government encouragement but from the fact that fathers were off to war and mothers were doing their best to hold families together while allies bombed their homes. And then there is the chaos that follows afterward.
Truth is the Nazis promised moral cleansing to Germany's people as part o ftheir net to get power and then with war revealed their true selves. Undid their good works and launched their more infamouse deeds.
And I must admit from what you're talking you are very scinical.
Certainly I have read about JFK's antics. They're disgusting. I even envision what might have happened if they had become public knowledge.
In one of my projects Kennedy gets outed and there are consequences.
At the same time we Americans had some Great Presidents who fell from grace but managed to get back to grace. Men like Grover Cleveland who was the last Democrat I would ever vote for for president. He fathered an illegitimate child but provided for him. He married a girl half his age while president. Then there is Chester Arther who as President was the most likeable party animal who ever occupied the white house and would be the man to see if one wished to set up a social meeting but no dirt came of him. Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings is interesting reading but from what I have been reading of the scriptures this is an acceptable relationship providing certain conditions are met. Jefferson met those terms. He freed Hemmings and their children. Racists have more to dislike him for than anyone else for the relationship.
Politicians are by their nature crooks. The best way for people to keep their governments honest is to keep on looking over their backs and keep up the heat.
There are a lot of shocking things done by Governments and people in those governments. In the Soviet Union, NKVD chief Beria for his hobby of abducting teenage girls of the streets of Moscow to rape them. Sadam Hussein and his eldest son did bad things a lot like that from what I have been picking up. I have read some stories about members of the Inquesition which if true would be just as vile.
However this is the discussion of what Government bodies do. And in many ways Nazi policies and nazi public imagery were sharp contrast.
Much of what the nazis publicly said is used by Liberals today as bloody shirts to promote acceptence or legitimization of their own agenda. Anyone who disagrees with them gets equated with the nazis. But whatthe nazis quietly did is kept hush. In many ways they're the first in Western civilization to promote undermining of morals among children. (though at least they had a purpose behind their actions unlike today's lot).
They promised to clean up Germany's moral environment, which they did in peace time but undid when the war came. (Which is where I base my statements about them). They enacted a lot of anti-family policies. But then again some families fell apart not from government encouragement but from the fact that fathers were off to war and mothers were doing their best to hold families together while allies bombed their homes. And then there is the chaos that follows afterward.
Truth is the Nazis promised moral cleansing to Germany's people as part o ftheir net to get power and then with war revealed their true selves. Undid their good works and launched their more infamouse deeds.
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Helmut Von Moltke
fascinating stuff, Michael. About gays in the Wehrmacht, I read in "Experiences of war - the Third Reich" that gays there were punished after offenses, for example being sent to a punishment or penal unit, etc. I also heard somewhere and wrote before that there was a homosexual LAH officer which was held in a KZ then transferred to SS Fallschrims Btl.600, which had quite a few "mis fits", etc.
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Kevin
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phylo_roadking
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Michael, all responsiblities of Goering's Departments were subsumed into the Geheimes Staats Polizei Ampt in 1933 when he became simultaneously head of the Bavarian Secret State Police and the National Secret State Police. Despitre later changes etc, the GeStaPo never released any of the powers they had been given to other bodies.
phylo
phylo
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Michael N. Ryan
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1. From what I have been reading in Goering's biographies He kept wire tap power to himself and his FA throughout his life in power.
2. As far as Penal practices and Homosexuals my sources are mostly in relation to the Camps and nazi penal law. Waffen SS commanders tended to function as Laws onto Themselves. Theodore Eiche routinely kicked out officers from his Totenkopf Division and replaced them from men from the KZs much to Himmler's disgust since it made service in the Camps look inferior to the service in the waffen SS. I do not know how Sepp Dietrich handled his Division. I am told he hanged Rapists but other than that I have not heard much else. So far the data, besides the material already stated, is that there were only Fifty thousand prosecutions under Paragraph 175. It is rumored that normal men, especially clergy and teachers were singled out and prosecuted under it to railroad and discredit them but I have yet to find confriming other sources. I have read in several sources That many camp guards were Homosexual, including one Max Bielas who was murdered by an inmate in Treblinka.
I have also read that Himmler looked the other way while his SS colleagues seduced Hitler Youth Boys. Hitler's Children the hitler youth and the SS by Gerhard Rempel cites this.
I would also cite for circumstantial evidence purposes the novel Cross of Iron written by the Wehrmacht veteran Willi Heinrich in that one of his characters an officer was openly Homosexual by seducing his batman. I do not see how a veteran relivinghis hellish memories would just add a little bit of imagination to his work for some reason.
However, all things aside we must remember One Thing. The nazis are a Political entity where the Wehrmacht like the United States armed forces is a militery entity. Many Waffen SS comanders were Himmler's politcal hacks. Others like Sepp Dietrich saw themselves as professional soldiers and looked to the Wehrmacht for example. Others were more inclined to suck up to the master.
2. As far as Penal practices and Homosexuals my sources are mostly in relation to the Camps and nazi penal law. Waffen SS commanders tended to function as Laws onto Themselves. Theodore Eiche routinely kicked out officers from his Totenkopf Division and replaced them from men from the KZs much to Himmler's disgust since it made service in the Camps look inferior to the service in the waffen SS. I do not know how Sepp Dietrich handled his Division. I am told he hanged Rapists but other than that I have not heard much else. So far the data, besides the material already stated, is that there were only Fifty thousand prosecutions under Paragraph 175. It is rumored that normal men, especially clergy and teachers were singled out and prosecuted under it to railroad and discredit them but I have yet to find confriming other sources. I have read in several sources That many camp guards were Homosexual, including one Max Bielas who was murdered by an inmate in Treblinka.
I have also read that Himmler looked the other way while his SS colleagues seduced Hitler Youth Boys. Hitler's Children the hitler youth and the SS by Gerhard Rempel cites this.
I would also cite for circumstantial evidence purposes the novel Cross of Iron written by the Wehrmacht veteran Willi Heinrich in that one of his characters an officer was openly Homosexual by seducing his batman. I do not see how a veteran relivinghis hellish memories would just add a little bit of imagination to his work for some reason.
However, all things aside we must remember One Thing. The nazis are a Political entity where the Wehrmacht like the United States armed forces is a militery entity. Many Waffen SS comanders were Himmler's politcal hacks. Others like Sepp Dietrich saw themselves as professional soldiers and looked to the Wehrmacht for example. Others were more inclined to suck up to the master.