If Spain joined the Axis in 1941

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Hi, what do you think would happen in WWII if in 1941 General Franco brought Spain into the war, you think it might turn the tide of war, etc?

[Alex Coles]

It wouldn't. Considering he needed aid to beat the republicans! Their African possessions would be captured, it would make Germany have to move troops to help them like they had to do with Italy. The Terrain might hold off the Allies for a while because it's rugged a bit like Italy's but they wouldn't be of assistance, only problems.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

you're probably right, but what about Gibraltar? That probably would have fallen, and the Germans could find more Spanish volunteers for Eastern front.

[Alex Coles]

Well, Gibraltar was very mountainous so a garrison could defend it pretty well, and because it's the British' only way into the mediterranean without going round the cape of good hope and Suez the RN would intervene.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

But I remember in some book I read it says that Hitler planned an attack on Gibraltar by elite German troops, with heavy artillery, if Spain joined the war on Axis side. Judging by this, with German super guns like Dora, Gibraltar would have fallen, and the Luftwaffe could easily tear the Royal Nazy to pieces if it was at Gibraltar, just as the Japanese did with the Americans at Peal Harbor.

[Alex Coles]

Ok Helmut, give me a railroad which could get a railgun enough range to shoot at Gibraltar.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

I'm afraid I don't know, the source (I don't remember) dose not mention about railways, it just mentions special artillery, but using something like Dora was my guess.

[Dirlewanger]

"The 80-cm K (E), for all its size and weight, to say nothing of its 'overkill' firepower, went into action on only one occasion. It was originally intended to smash through the extensive Maginot Line forts but when the campaign in the West took place in 1940 the 80-cm K (E) was still in the Krupp workshops at Essen and, in any event, the German army bypassed the Maginot Line altogether. Thus when the 80-cm equipment had completed its gun proofing trials at Hillersleben and its service acceptance trials at Rugenwalde there was nothing for the gun and its crew to do. To justify the labour and effort of getting the huge gun and its entourage into action, the potential target had to justify all the bother involved, and there were no really large fortification lines left in Europe for the gun to tackle. The two major fortification systems, the Sudetenland defences and the Maginot Line, were both in German hands and it seemed that the 80-cm K (E), or 'schwere Gustav' (heavy Gustav) as it became known, was redundant even before it had fired an aggressive shot.




During early 1941 one potential target appeared on the planner's drawing boards and that was Gibraltar. It was planned to assault this isolated fortress at the mouth of the Mediterranean to deny the inland sea to the Allies but as Spain was neutral permission had to be obtained from General Franco to allow German troops to travel through Spain to make the attack. Operational planning for the assault (named Operation 'Pelix') got to the stage at which German parachute and glider troops were actively training for the assault before a meeting between Hitler and Franco showed that the wily Spanish dictator was not going to allow himself or his country to become mixed up in a major European conflict, Thus another potential target for the 'schwere Gustav' came and went."

Here you are Helmut, you are correct that a plan was drawn up to bombard Gibraltar with the Dora, but was never carried out for the above reasons The correct name for the proposed assualt on Gibraltar was 'Operation Felix.'

http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/direct18.html

Above is a link with Hitlers directive for the operation

[Michael N. Ryan]

If Spain had foolishly joined the axis in 1941 its only reward would have been ruin.

Spain was a mess still recovering from its civil war. Not much money. Most of its cities bombed. A lot of people dead. Many starving.

Spain's air force and navy were in the process of becoming antiquidated and had hardly much money to buy modern replacements. Spain's army was hardly in a situation much better.

By joining Hitler and Mussolini all Franco would have obtained for his troubles would be British blockade and British bombers, loss of all of Spain's remaining colonies with a bad situtation going worse. In exchange for which little of any value would have been obtained.

Gibralter, which is heavily fortified, might have fallen to Spain but so much would be lost that it would not be worth the price. And Gibralter's fall is not a sure thing. Spaniards have tried many times to take the place and failed.

Franco knew this, Canaris let him in on the full picture, which is why he chose to stay out.

[phylo_roadking]

All, not enough deep thought being applied here!

The Straits of Gibralter closed. No supplies from the UK to the Middle East in the vital year of 1941, except via the Cape. No armour except in vulnerable convoys. Loss of naval control of the ENTIRE west Mediterranean.

Why on earth would Spain loose her African colonies?? More likely eventually she would have been given FRANCE'S lol ANyway, Imagine 1943....Torch forces would have to fight their way thru these, no rapid capitulation like Algeria/French Morocco.

Spain's ground forces were predominantly infantry or motorised infantry, little armour BUT the Spanish Air Force was building nicely with all those Casa's (He111) and Buchons (Me109) Not enought to turn the result of the war....but enough to keep the RAF and Coastal Command out of Biscay and the Western Approaches in the Second Happy Time? Maybe.

Spanish/Portuguese Atlantic ports for UBoats and commerce raiders.

And lots lots more......

phylo

[Helmut Von Moltke]

yes, many sensible points there. Spain could also supply troops to help Rommel in Africa, and with the British surrounded in the Meditirrenean Montgomery would not have as much material to fight El Alamein, etc, resulting in decisive British defeats there. Also because of this, Malta would be in a more dangerous poistion. plus, Allies air forces would be spread out more since they would have to bomb Spain, and the Allies after D Day would have to waste much material, time, manpower and casualties to conquer Spain, thus probably prolonging the war. Btw, thanks for helping me out with the guns Dora and Gustav.

helmut

[Alex Coles]

Spain, would only be a problem if it supplied troops. They were pretty much not very good quality. Not much material? Because of the RN they could always fight supplies through Gibraltar, and anyway why would the brits lose it? They had it in Victorian times and going back. Oh yes, Schwere Gustav is actually the other name for the Dora

Why would the allies bomb spain? It wasn't the most industrialised place up for targetting, while on the other hand the Ruhr was more important.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Spain, would only be a problem if it supplied troops. They were pretty much not very good quality. Not much material? Because of the RN they could always fight supplies through Gibraltar, and anyway why would the brits lose it? They had it in Victorian times and going back. Oh yes, Schwere Gustav is actually the other name for the Dora

Why would the allies bomb spain? It wasn't the most industrialised place up for targetting, while on the other hand the Ruhr was more important.

hi, but in this scenario, if the RN was near Gibraltar, it would most likely be kind of concentrated, making it a sitting duck for the Luftwaffe, which would be based much nearer in Spain, than say Historically from Sicily. The RN would suffer many ships sunk. And why do you say Spain's wartime troops are not good? They haven't really been tested in WWII battles yet....

[Michael N. Ryan]

Spain's troops were combat experienced veterans. However this does not mean they could break the fortifications of Gibralter which Britain could easily supply and maintain (remember Malta?).

At the same time, Spain had not the economy or industry to support any war effort or the means to support its own people which would ultimately pull them down. Britain would simply add Spain's ports to the Blockade as it had when Spain was the allie of Napoleon and they starve since HItler had nothing to give to replace those losses.

Though fortifying the straights might cut supplies from: India, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific and the East Side of Africa (includingthe oil from the Middle east) those could easily be rerouted to go the long way around South Africa and they do not effect The atlantic.

In the end, joining the Axis would be the end of Franco's Spain.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

hi, but in real history, in return for alliance, Franco demanded lots of economic aid. So in this scenario if there was alliance, Germany would probably supply Spain with economical aid, and that might enable Franco's Spain to survive better.