Reminder about Holocaust and War Crimes Discussions!!!!

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:07 pm

sid guttridge wrote:Hi CY,

My understanding is that it is only the Holocaust that is out of bounds.

The subject you are raising is similar to many others that have been discussed on threads here and is presumably within bounds. We have had our Oradour threads, our Katyn threads, we have had Maltese civilians beating the brains out of downed Italian airmen, German prisoners dying in British captivity after the end of the war, etc., etc.

Who were these guys? A Cape Coloured pioneer unit from the South African division at Second Tobruk? (Don't answer here, use a new thread.)

Cheers,

Sid.
Ok Sid, thanks for that

I'll post this in the Allied section

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:05 pm

Feldgrau's policy on the issue of war crimes is that discussions of war crimes, ala "xyz unit did xyz thing at xyz place and date" is fine (in the proper forum) as long as it remains TOTALLY neutral and unbiased either for or against it. Ours is not a place to judge, condemn or defend but to simply study and hope to understand. There is nothing wrong with trying to get a full picture of, say, the 2nd SS, but to go off on a rant "for" or "against" the division in this context is just totally out of line in a place dedicated to research, not polemics.
Should have read this first :oops:

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die

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The Panzer Oberst
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Wives and War Criminals, are they not the same?

Post by The Panzer Oberst » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:59 pm

I believe that the topics are the same thing. Maybe a Russian wife is the answer!
"I no longer control events, they control me, and that is why I am sick of hearing about the Great German Army. I wish I were in the Mountains where the air is so cool."

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The Panzer Oberst
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Wives and War Criminals, are they not the same?

Post by The Panzer Oberst » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:00 pm

I believe that the topics are the same thing. Maybe a Russian wife is the answer!
"I no longer control events, they control me, and that is why I am sick of hearing about the Great German Army. I wish I were in the Mountains where the air is so cool."

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Post by matthewdenn » Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:32 pm

IMHO, I think the policy about the holocaust is unacceptable. It plays such a vital part of this period of German History between 1933-1945 I think the least that the moderators can do is to create a section strictly for discussion about the holocaust even if it's only on an empirical level and not addressing the polemics or ideological justifications of it. Just my two cents, but it's your forum.

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Post by DXTR » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:52 am

Hi Matthew

Considering that only Feldgrau has a very small community of moderators, a Holocaust section is a timeconsuming and frustrating hell holeif it is not moderated properly. At AHF there is a Holocaust section and it is run almost full time by a very competent mod. If you scan the old threads of the HCWC section at AHF you will see that before the Moderator took the job, threads degenerated into a barbrawl as fast as anything. The problem is that a Holocaust section is very controversial. I don't personally understand why, but there is a lot of people fascinated with the Third Reich who have a problem accepting the facts of the Holocaust. So I think that simply out of simplicity and neccesity it is a wise decision to prohibit any debate on the Holocaust. Just look at how heated the debate on the SS tends to be from time to time.

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AHF?

Post by matthewdenn » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:44 am

What is the website address of AHF? I see your point. Thanks.

Matt

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Post by Knox » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:20 pm

Axis History Forum: http://forum.axishistory.com/

Board Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes

Knox

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Post by matthewdenn » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:20 am

Ahhh, it's coming back to me I believe I'm registered on that one, AHF. Thanks anyways though. :up:
Last edited by matthewdenn on Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam H.
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Post by Sam H. » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:18 pm

DXTR wrote:Hi Matthew

Considering that only Feldgrau has a very small community of moderators, a Holocaust section is a timeconsuming and frustrating hell holeif it is not moderated properly. At AHF there is a Holocaust section and it is run almost full time by a very competent mod. If you scan the old threads of the HCWC section at AHF you will see that before the Moderator took the job, threads degenerated into a barbrawl as fast as anything. The problem is that a Holocaust section is very controversial. I don't personally understand why, but there is a lot of people fascinated with the Third Reich who have a problem accepting the facts of the Holocaust. So I think that simply out of simplicity and neccesity it is a wise decision to prohibit any debate on the Holocaust. Just look at how heated the debate on the SS tends to be from time to time.

Regards
For some deniers, it is almost a religious following.

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Post by matthewdenn » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:01 pm

Indeed. Just go to http://www.npd.de. They are absolute holocaust deniers some and they are masters of polemics when it comes to the re-annexation of conceded German lands.

hey want to annex the Sudetenland and Austria again, although I will concede that I think that East Prussia should go back to Germany instead of this little hunk in Russian hands.

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Apples and Oranges

Post by Opa » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:12 pm

You should not mix three very different issues:

1. The theft of traditional German lands

2. The ethnic cleansing of these lands, once forcibly transfered to other countries

Not all victims and their descendants have "conceded" the rightfullness or even finality of both wrongs. And this is their perfect moral right.

The other part of your sentence

3. Holocaust denial

has nothing to do with #2 and #1, even if the NPD lumps it together, in order to attract expellee support.

Ethnic cleansing is wrong, whether the Fuehrer, the Vojdsch, or Franklin Delano Roosevelt order it.
Honny soit qui mal y pense!

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Re:

Post by panzermahn » Sun May 17, 2009 3:56 am

matthewdenn wrote:Indeed. Just go to http://www.npd.de. They are absolute holocaust deniers some and they are masters of polemics when it comes to the re-annexation of conceded German lands.

hey want to annex the Sudetenland and Austria again, although I will concede that I think that East Prussia should go back to Germany instead of this little hunk in Russian hands.
Not wanting to argue, the Holocaust was bad but the ethnic German cleansing and the brutalization upon the German expellees in eastern territories were equally bad too. As de Zayas said, all are equal in death

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Re: Reminder about Holocaust and War Crimes Discussions!!!!

Post by Domen123 » Mon May 25, 2009 4:11 pm

matthewdenn wrote:although I will concede that I think that East Prussia should go back to Germany instead of this little hunk in Russian hands.
Northern part of East Prussia (the part which belongs to Russia today) was never inhabited by any significant amounts of either Russians or Poles. But southern part of East Prussia (so called Mazury in Polish) was ethnically Polish since the Middle Ages.

The main reason why southern part of East Prussia voted for Germany in 1920 was the fact that at the time when the plebiscite was carried out, the state of Poland was in an extremely dangerous and critical political and military situation. Bolshevik armies were quickly approaching Warsaw and it was generally thought that Poland stood no chance for repulsing the Bolshevik invasion and remaining days of Poland were already counted, it would fell very soon. Another factor which had got significant influence on the result of this plebiscite (carried out on 11.07.1920) was terror and persecutions of ethnic Poles - especially influential Polish political activists - organized and carried out by German authorities in East Prussia.

The history of Polish colonization of Prussia goes back to the times of 13th century. Ethnic Poles started to settle in Prussia when armies of the state of the Teutonic Order supported by dukes of Poland and various crusaders and mercenaries from all around Europe conquered and captured territories of pagan Prussian tribes. This ethnic Polish colonization of Prussia became even more intensive during the following centuries - 14th and 15th - and lasted as long as until the end of 17th century.

Social and regional composition of Polish colonists who settled in former pagan Prussian territories then held by the state of the Teutonic Order was varied. Major part of these colonists were peasants and not very well-off knighthood and nobility - usually owners of only a part of a village up to one entire village. There were also some townsmen, mainly members of the plebs social class, artisans and also minor merchants. Seldom patricians. They were coming to Prussia in order to search for better live conditions, new uninhabited lands or in order to make a fortune and also induced by Teutonic authorities. That's why they were mainly coming from the historical region of Mazovia - which at that time (13th - 15th centuries) was the most underdeveloped part of Poland - completely different than developed and reach provinces of Silesia, western part of Lesser Poland (so called Land of Cracow), Greater Poland and Cuiavia.

Since late 13th century until middle 14th century Mazovia was often considered as a separated and independent from Poland - but ruled by Polish dukes from Piast dynasty - state, although the process of gaining independence from Poland by Mazovia was not immediate, but long and gradual and strictly connected with the progressing phenomenon of feudal fragmentation in Poland (power and position in the state of the senioral duke / princeps was slowly becoming smaller and smaller, and some dukes were not recognizing the rule and superiority of senioral dukes from Cracow any more). Mazovia even became a faithful ally of the Teutonic Order during its wars against the Kingdom of Poland fought in 14th century, and also was temporarily subordinated to the Bohemian king as his vassal during that century.

As was written above, ethnic Poles who settled in Prussia in the Middle Ages mainly came from Mazovia. That's why they were called "Mazurzy" = "the Mazurs" or "the Mazurians" (because inhabitants of Mazovia are called Mazowszanie or Mazurzy) and the Polish name for this region (which was used for the first time in early 19th century) is "Mazury".

Ethnic Poles mainly settled in the southern part of Prussia. The northern border of the compact Polish colonization in this province was - more or less - along the line Morag - southern Warmia (German: Ermland) - Ketrzyn - Wegorzewo - Gołdapia (Goldap). Teutonic (later German) administration was calling these lands "die polnischen Ämter":

Map from the excellent book "Państwo Zakonu krzyżackiego w Prusach. Władza i Społeczeństwo" ("The state of the Teutonic Order in Prussia. The authorities and the society"), PWN, Warsaw, 2008 - page 207:

"Map 11. Directions of colonization of the state of the Teutonic Order in 13th and 14th centuries."

Black arrows - German colonization
White arrows - Polish colonization
Dark areas - property of bishops (mainly in Warmia = Ermland)

Image

The Mazurs - unlike native Prussians - did not undergo Germanization (vast majority of native Prussians were Germanized until the end of 17th century) and retained their Polish language and customs. But they did not retain Catholic religion - vast majority of all Mazurs were Lutherans in 19th century. Due to progressing German pressure and persecution of Poles in East Prussia in 19th century - especially during the times of Bismarck and his "Kulturkampf" - Mazurzy tried to defend and protect their distinguishing characteristic - at first as regional community, later also as part of the Polish nation. Since 1842 Polish newspapers were being published in East Prussia - like for example "Przyjaciel Ludu Łecki" or "Mazur". At the end of 19th century Polish political activists concentrated mainly around "Gazeta Ludowa" newspaper and Mazurska Partia Ludowa (MPL) political party. In 1910 Mazurski Bank Ludowy bank was founded. After the First World War Mazurski Komitet Plebiscytowy and Mazurski Związek Ludowy were managing the action of incorporating Mazury (so southern part of East Prussia) to the state of Poland.

In the interwar era many Polish organizations existed in Mazury. For example between 1923 and 1928 - Zjednoczenie Mazurskie (The Mazurian Federation) with head office in the town of Szczytno. Many Mazurian activists were members of the Związek Polaków w Prusach Wschodnich (Association of Poles in East Prussia) and together with members of this association joined the Związek Polaków w Niemczech (Association of Poles in Germany) in 1922.

Persecutions of Polish activists intensified in years 1928 - 1932 and after Hitler came to power. During the Second World War many Mazurians were imprisoned or murdered by the Nazis in prisons or concentration camps.

Mazury were captured by the Red Army in January and February of 1945 and incorporated by Joseph Stalin to the People's Republic of Poland. But new communist authorities were treating Mazurians almost as bad as Germans and Volksdeutche, and as the result of this policy many of them departed from Polish national identity and Polish customs, or decided to emigrate / escape to the United States of America.

After escape / expulsion of Germans and emigration of many Mazurians to the USA, Mazury and especially other parts of former East Prussia were mainly populated by Polish repatriates expulsed from pre-war Polish territories in Eastern Poland - especially from the Wileńszczyzna region with the city of Wilno (today part of Lithuania).

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Re: Reminder about Holocaust and War Crimes Discussions!!!!

Post by Domen123 » Tue May 26, 2009 4:36 am

1. The theft of traditional German lands
I wouldn't call these lands - for example Gdańsk (German: Danzig) a "traditional German land".

German speaking population settled in some of the "traditional Polish lands" (Pomerelia, Lower Silesia, western part of Greater Poland) during the so called Ostsiedlung in the Middle Ages. These German speaking people were coming to Poland from economical reasons - they hoped that in Poland they would have better lives than in overpopulated Medieval Germany. They were also induced to settle in Poland by Polish dukes from Piast dynasty - mainly by rulers of Silesia.

I am proud of interesting and diversed history of my country - Poland. And I am proud that the society of my country was formed by many different nations since the Middle Ages - not only by Poles but also by Jews, Germans, Ruthenians, etc. These nations lived together and mixed by numerous marriages.

My family also have got both Polish and German roots.

Of course there were also negative aspects of this ethnic diversity of Medieval and Renaissance Poland, which later had got major influence on the history of some Polish provinces and the whole Poland - especially in 17th and 18th centuries.

But on the other hand - the fact that Gdańsk had got significant German speaking population since 14th century, does not turn the city of Gdańsk into a "traditional German land / city".

The state of the Teutonic Order (to which Gdańsk belonged between early 14th and middle 15th centuries) - although ruled by Teutonic authorities majority of whom were German speakers - was also a multi-ethnical and multi-cultural - not just German - state. Ethnic Germans formed only around 40 - 50 % of population of this state around year 1410.

As long as German speakers in the city of Gdańsk were faithful to the Kingdom of Poland - their motherland (and I must say that they were very faithful to the Kingdom of Poland - no other city in Poland celebrated the king Jan III Sobieski's victory over the Ottoman Empire at Vienna in 1683 as much as Gdańsk with its considerable German speaking population did) ethnic Poles had nothing to do against ethnic Germans in Gdańsk, because they were considered as exactly the same citizens of the Kingdom of Poland as all other citizens of this state - including Polish speakers.

Very interesting video about Germans in Poland and the Republic of Both Nations since the Middle Ages - in English:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stLdXx4HqCI

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