The Dutch and WWII

[Sam H.]

Hi Max,

Interesting if true, but it isn't, is it?

If I remember rightly, the Dutch mobilised some ten divisions against the initial German invasion.

Where are the ten+ divisions of Dutchmen the Germans must have raised to make your proposition true? They couldn't even keep one full strength division of Dutchmen in the field.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid

You are correct, I have no idea how 20,000 - 30,000 is more than 10 divisions. Perhaps it is the new math?

[sid guttridge]

.......or myth!

[GuidoS]

I don't think it's fair to say something like that.

The Dutch population what i heard wasn't so fond of those NSB and other facists. They didn't mind the Wehrmacht that much (after 1940) in some parts of the country. But i'm sure and what i heard from family etc. when they were gathering men for the Arbeitseinzats and moving out the Jews. There was a real war going on.

there were something about 20000 Dutchmen in the SS. But most of em joined because of the adventure and they thought it was better to get along with the Germans and fight, then working in a factory in horrible conditions!

I can tell you, only a few Dutchmen was really fanatic Nazi's.


Maybe it's because my family didn't ahd a great time during the war i feel this way.

[haen1]

To their big embarrassment, the Dutch "run away government", had to see that there were an approcimate 50,000 (fifty thousand) volunteers from the Netherlands in the German Army.
This included the Waffen SS, the Kriegsmarine, some Wehrmacht, some Luftwaffe, many Luftwaffe flak helfers, The Netherlands Ambulance Korps for the Eastfront, the N.S.K.K. , The Ostkorps, and a number of other organisations.
Some, were, as had been said, just adventurers.
Some, had been "professional" military in the Dutch army and when given the chance to be a part of the "New Europa"served with their former adversaries.
Others had been National socialists for years and happily saw the army of their brothers, being enlarged with volunteers from their own ranks.
Again, others, were actually people who had ran afoul of the law and were gicen a choice eithet "tit" or "tat".
Next there were those who saw it as a chance to get some extra money and rations for their families
And finally, there were those who just plain out were cajoled / drafted / etc. to "volunteer".
Just some old memories.
HN

[sid guttridge]

Hi Haen,

50,000 is also, coincidentally, the number of members the main Dutch National Socialist party claimed before the war. Not too many out of a population of some ten million!

Cheers,

Sid.

[haen1]

Hi Sid,
It also was estimated that only less than 50% of the Netherlands volunteers were "national socialist" in the sense of political belief.
Even N.S.B. members, were not all true believers.
Some (or many?) were of the same calibre as the rest of the population, actually waiting who would win, and hedging their bets.
HN

[Soldat7128]

The under-equipped, undermanned, poorly trained Dutch army had the opportunity to engage the Germans in combat for less than a week.

The Nazi occupying forces had nearly 4 years to influence, cajole, persuade and of course force Dutch citizens into the German armed forces. Over these 4 years they succeeded in enlisting between 25,000 and 30,000 Dutch (source wikipedia .org).

Hence Max, is it really that “interesting” that more Dutch fought for the Nazis in the whole of WWII than against them during the initial invasion of 5 or so days.

Just because the Dutch army might have been poorly trained and under-equipped (I understand about undermanned) and fought for "only a week" doesn't mean it had fewer members than Dutch SS formations did later on...

It just doesn't make sense to me that the Dutch army at the time of the German invasion consisted of less than 30,000 men; perhaps the person who made the original assertion could post concrete numbers.

[Cott Tiger]

The under-equipped, undermanned, poorly trained Dutch army had the opportunity to engage the Germans in combat for less than a week.

The Nazi occupying forces had nearly 4 years to influence, cajole, persuade and of course force Dutch citizens into the German armed forces. Over these 4 years they succeeded in enlisting between 25,000 and 30,000 Dutch (source wikipedia .org).

Hence Max, is it really that “interesting” that more Dutch fought for the Nazis in the whole of WWII than against them during the initial invasion of 5 or so days.

Just because the Dutch army might have been poorly trained and under-equipped (I understand about undermanned) and fought for "only a week" doesn't mean it had fewer members than Dutch SS formations did later on...

It just doesn't make sense to me that the Dutch army at the time of the German invasion consisted of less than 30,000 men; perhaps the person who made the original assertion could post concrete numbers.

I agree.

It would be very interesting to know the actual figures. Sid mentioned that he thought ten divisions were mobilised against the invasion. Did all these see combat?

[Sam H.]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... etherlands

Here's a good description of the fighting - yes, all 10 divisions participated in the war.

[Doktor Krollspell]

A rather expensive little book (Helion!) on the subject is Military Operations of the Dutch Army 10th - 17th May 1940 by P. L. G. Doorman (reprinted 2004) that was originally published by the Dutch exile authorities in Great Britain in 1944. I haven't read it though...


Regards,

Krollspell

[Alex Dekker]

Thanks Krollspell! Never heard of the book . It seems to be not an issue around here in Holland. There are books about the Grebbeberg, Kornwederzand and the Dutch fighting within the Waffen SS, but when it comes to a history of the Dutch army... there's mostly silence...

Alex

[Nordwest]

Hallo Alex!

Just found the following Website: http://www-lib.usc.edu/~anthonya/war/main.htm


Michael

[McFish]

cool!

[Paulus II]

Hi all,

I'm really wondering where the notion of the Dutch Army, mentioned in an earlier post, having less than 30.000 men under arms came from.

As I have very little time at the moment I will go from memory but I'll dig into it during the coming week.

As has also been mentioned the Dutch Army consisted of ten divisions. Numbered 1 through 8 with two divisions forming a Corps (nrs 1 through 4), the Light Division and the Peel Division.

Each division consisted of two or three infantry regiments and an artillery regiment. About 10.000 men to a division.

Apart from the divisions there were a number of regiments and battalions that served independently from the division/corps structure.

I can't remember the total number of men under arms but I know of one reference on the mobilsation order of august 1939 that 200.000 men were arriving at their billets. Most probably none of these were sent home before the invasion in may 1940. Add to these draftees the professional cadres and the total amount of men in the army must have been at least some 250.000, probably more, and that's just the army. The airforce wasn't all that large but the navy must have amounted to quite a few men.

Must cut it short for now, more to come this week.

Cheers, Paul

[haen1]

Hi Haen,

50,000 is also, coincidentally, the number of members the main Dutch National Socialist party claimed before the war. Not too many out of a population of some ten million!

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid;
Actually that number was not too shabby, considering that there were well over 60 political "parties', each claiming their respective membership numbers. Even WITHIN the same doctrines there were several competing ones.
Furthermore, most of the Dutch were "A"-political, meaning that they were not members of ANY action group or party.
An old saying had it that they were: "Calvin protestant reformed, with or without God"
And the number of our population I learned in Highschool (1940) was 8 miilion, not 10.
No longer important, and just a thought.
HN