Trigger happy US critics - or worse?

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:47 am

Hi Guys,

One has to wonder at the motivation of posters anxious to blame the US for things even before they are in possession of the facts.

For example, on the sister-thread "Trigger happy US cowboys - or worse" some posters have already blamed the US for the recent death of the Italian security agent, even though the full facts are not yet known and the Italian prime minister himself is still awating the results of an Italian, let alone US, enquiry and has issued no condemnation himself.

I would suggest that such "trigger-happy" criticism tells us more about the preconceived predjudices of some posters and their sloppy methodology, (which clearly does not require the possession of the facts to sustain their charges), than it does about the events under discussion.

Cheers,

Sid.

Deiter Hollenstein · Post by **Deiter Hollenstein** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:45 am

Well said, Sid. It's rather like claiming some sort of dubious high ground. As soon as you say "It's the fault of the US" the burden of proof for some reason suddenly shifts to those who would say that it isn't. You no longer have to prove that it is the fault of the US. Others now have to prove that it isn't.

Rodger Herbst · Post by **Rodger Herbst** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:19 am

My thoughts exactly Sid. As Joe Friday the TV detective used to say,
"just the facts ma'm"

michael kenny · Post by **michael kenny** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:23 am

Sid seeing as you brought it up have you seen the results of any 'enquiries' into previous incidents where civilians ( even young children) were shot dead at checkpoints? Speaking as one who has seen footage of hysterical children screaming as the are taken from the car where their whole familes are lying riddled with bullets I would say it looks as if it is not some one-off tragic error but a deliberate sanctioned policy of shoot first and ask questions later.
Surely these enquiry results will explain why this is such a regular occurence and the steps taken to prevent it happening again.
Is it disputed that Journalists have been shot at before, even ones in hotels and their own offices?
If a reporter is labelled 'communist' then they are not to be believed about anything?
Hysterical' you must be a commie' replies will be ignored.

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:56 am

Fact is that the same people who are praising the unhampered trade with Hakenkreuze and Holocaust denying pamphlets in America as a proof of freedom and democracy are trying to denounce anyone who dares to criticize the politics of St. Bush the holy warrior as a traitor or Stalinist. Obviously, the only people entitled to the right of free speech are pseudo-christian fundamentalists and greedy warmongers while the rest should be glad if they don't end up in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib for their criminal defatism. Or, as George Orwell put it, some pigs are more equal than others.

Christian · Post by **Christian** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:53 am

Michael,

Since you already know the answer to your question to Sid, let me ask you the following. Have you had the privilege to review the findings of investigations carried out by coalition forces in Iraq about shootings at check points? If so, why don't you share the facts with us?

While we all agree that if there is evidence of wrongdoings/crimes, the military must prosecute a soldier to the fullest extent, the sole fact that you have seen some pretty gruesome pictures does in no way justify/support your conclusion that rules of engagement are to shoot first and to ask questions later.

In respect to Sgrena, let us be clear. She is a reporter for a communist daily and also an activist who opposed the UN sanctions after 1991 and the war in 2003. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she will paint the most damaging picture in respect to the war and the recent events which led to the tragic death of Nicola Calipari. As I mentioned, there are even some people (and I don't endorse this view) who go as far as saying that her entire abduction was staged in order to influence Italian public opinion and put pressure on the government.

Communications Minister Maurizio Gasparri already urged Sgrena to show more caution in her remarks: "I understand the emotion of these hours, but those who have been under stress in the past few weeks should pull themselves together and avoid saying nonsense."

Christian

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:57 am

Hi Michael,

No. I haven't seen the results of previous shooting incidents. But then neither, I would venture to suggest, have the knee-jerk US critics.

Nor would it in the least surprise me if there was a policy to shoot at people who drive through road blocks without stopping. What would the point of roadblocks be unless this ultimate sanction was available to the men manning them?

Cheers,

Sid.

michael kenny · Post by **michael kenny** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:22 am

My point is Sid, that you dont really care about any 'enquiries'. It seems that you accept the right of these road blocks to kill civilians with impunity.
All the guff about 'wait for the explaination' is simply an attempt to stiffle the criticism for a while.
After the downing of the RAF transport plane a while back we were told that it was not shot down and various other reasons were advanced to explain it away. Just today we got a preliminary report where every other cause but a shoot down is ruled out-but they still can not bring themselves to say it was shot down. Iraq is a sore point and the last thing the 'coalition wants is bad publicity. The collective line is that things are going to plan and no error can be admitted.
Italian public opinion is still outraged that the US pilot who collided with a cable car in 1999 killing all on board was cleared by a US court. We can expect the same this time as well.

Jason Pipes · Post by **Jason Pipes** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:51 pm

Stefan has been banned due to his repeated and offensive postings. I apologize to everyone for having to put up with them.

Hans · Post by **Hans** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:15 pm

I have seen a few military road blocks in my time (eg. Northern Ireland, Malaysia, etc), and with all the zigging and zagging and slowing and swerving one has to do to even get to within 100 metres of the soldiers checking cars, papers etc., I fail to see how you can speed through them or at them. Unless of course they have not been constructed properly. Again a training issue.
- Hans

Deiter Hollenstein · Post by **Deiter Hollenstein** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:17 pm

True. But again no one wants to go near the bad planning on the Italian side that led to the death of their own operative.

Christian · Post by **Christian** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:09 pm

Deiter,

Your point of poor coordination with coalition troops definitely has merit. See the following article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... aly07.html

Christian

Achilles · Post by **Achilles** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:30 pm

But again no one wants to go near the bad planning on the Italian side that led to the death of their own operative.

Such bad planning of course that they had already passed through two checkpoints. Are you saying every single journey of any civilian vehicle should be communicated to all checkpoints on it's route? And if you don't and you get blown away, then that's your fault? Bizarre logic.

So basically it's not safe to travel anywhere in a civilian vehicle in Iraq? If the insurgents don't get you, the US will. The post Christian posted in another thread with a link to an American journalist's experiences of these 'roadblocks' says everything anyone needs to know - that they are badly planned and poorly executed. I would have thought after two years of experience they would have it down to a fine art by now. Obviously not.

Achilles · Post by **Achilles** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:36 pm

One has to wonder at the motivation of posters anxious to blame the US for things even before they are in possession of the facts.

Exactly the same as those who were claiming the car was speeding towards the checkpoint without hearing the Italian side of the story. They claim they were travelling at 30mph...and they had already passed through two checkpoints.

Given the numerous repeated incidents of this kind is it any wonder neutral observers tend to beleive that the US doctrine and tactics maybe at fault? Or is every single victim of these incidents to blame?

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:57 am

Hi Hans,

You are absolutely right. A properly constructed road block should be impossible to speed through by accident.

In Rhodesia I remember stopping a bus load of Selous Scouts on a bridge with six slatted bed bases laid on their sides. They were furious at being presented with an apparently impenetrable obstacle. My men took great delight in removing the "impenetrable obstacle" with their finger tips.

However, we were not facing suicide bombers, for whom a manned roadblock is as much an opportunty as an obstacle, so I imagine that circumstances are somewhat different in Iraq.

Cheers,

Sid.