Should Germany join the United States as a superpower?

[august]

i agree it can be a double standard from our government, not from the american people. the attitude here is we want peace and prosperity, we hope the rest of the world does too, but we should adopt a hands off approach. i think most americans would agree. this is an area i won't proceed any further into. by the way, WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS! america has done more for the world than any country since recorded history began, that is a fact. no sour grapes please. as far as my government, that's why we elected obama, we aren't happy, we must have change!

[phylo_roadking]

attitude here is we want peace and prosperity, we hope the rest of the world does too, but we should adopt a hands off approach.

Problem is - your various governments shouldn't have THEN spent the last 60 years encouraging other governments to reply on it....as a people you may not like this fact, but you HAVE taken some very real responsibilites onto yourselves. As I said - the point to remove yourselves from the rest of the world stage was late August 1945, not now.

[statemachine]

Phylo,was that really possible in 45?What should have been done in 45 was to get the Soviets to surrender arms.

[phylo_roadking]

I didn't say it was possible - just that it's the point it should have happened.

[august]

it is possible by asking europe to finally shoulder their fair share. as far as RUSSIA is concerned we could still have detente if we continue to elect diplomats as well as statesmen and not idiots.

[phylo_roadking]

August - that's the problem - There is no "fair share" now, because of the way European economies have declined, and some American activities over the last 60 years have reduced their budgets as indicated - they don't have the money to spend. IF an American withdrawal had been hinted at or indicated earlier they could have remained at the level of defence spending of literally decades ago - AND at a cost of austerity economies that would have made life for the average citizen not too indistinguishable from Soviet Russia in economic terms. Remember just HOW Russia for so many years found the money to actually SPEND on the Red Army...

European countries can't afford to fill the size of gap that a U.S. withdrawal means. They are 40-50 years' behind in doing that. And are in that position BECAUSE the U.S. was willing to step forward into Europe to meet the Soviets.

In a simple analogy....it's like the biggest kid taking his soccerball home in a strop....and the other kids can only afford a tennisball to kick around. Why??? Because their parents can't afford to give them the pocketmoney to buy anything bigger.

August, are you by any chance following international news feeds or anything??? The U.S. is NOT the only economy catching a cold, by no means. And some are FAR worse than you.

[Paddy Keating]

What the heck is a sound track record?Perhaps you can give us an example of good management.

The British Empire was an example of sound management, even if getting into hock to American moneylenders in order to wage wars aimed at preventing Germany from becoming Europe's strongman turned out to be very unsound management indeed, leading as it did to the impoverishment and disintegration of The British Empire and, inevitably, the lion-to-poodle metamorphosis, which is sometimes described without a hint of irony as The Special Relationship.

PK

[statemachine]

The McMahon Act I suppose represented a realisation on the part of the Brits that the honeymoon was over.But I will always argue that it was the conduct of the Brits in the colonies that brought about the decline.They lost so many in short order...

[phylo_roadking]

But I will always argue that it was the conduct of the Brits in the colonies that brought about the decline.They lost so many in short order...

Then you haven't been reading the thread. Compared to EVERY other European colonial power, they sorted or stabilised their problems BEFORE they became independent. And nowadays - how many ex-colonial powers maintain Britain's cordial if not excellent relations with the vast majority of their former possessions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Games

Where's the French/Belgian/German/Italian/Portuguese/Spanish equivalents? The Turks still have relations with their former imperial possessions...until the U.N peacekeepers get there!

[Paddy Keating]

You may be right about the 1946 Atomic Energy Act. Perhaps it was an indication of British awareness of the already one-sided "special relationship" but it did not prevent successive British governments on both sides of the political divide from dancing to Washington's tune from the 1940s onwards.

I would never suggest that British behaviour towards her colonial and imperial subjects was always correct. There were, for example, two attempts at genocide in Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries and Tasmania was subjected to genocidal massacres. However, that notwithstanding, I would say that were I black or brown, I would rather have found myself living under British rule than the Spanish, Portuguese, Germans, Swedes and Belgians, whose gratuitous cruelty was the norm rather than the exception. The French were not too bad. They were certainly less racist than the British. But they could also be very cruel. In the 1950s, British forces sometimes behaved violently in the colonies but you have to remember the vicious nature of the enemy they were facing. In general, they are remembered with a certain amount of fondness and nostalgia in former colonies. Indeed, many Sierra Leonans wish that their country could once more be a British colony or dominion after the recent intervention of the British Army, who restored order to that once-bountiful land. Many Africans in equally benighted places like Zimbabwe and Kenya would like to see British soldiers on their streets and in their countryside once more, bringing a return to the peace and relative prosperity enjoyed by Africans when the British ran their countries.

Anyway, I'm getting away from the theme so let me just say that the prospect of Germany as a superpower is even more alarming than the reality of the United States-as-superpower. Germans do not have the patience and finesse required to deal with uppity natives, as many Europeans and Africans found out at various times during the 20th century. Running empires requires a lot of patience and a certain amount of generosity of spirit. You cannot rely solely on terrorising and killing people who don't want your gift of "democracy". You have to use a carrot as well as a stick, which is not something the United States of recent times seems inclined to take on board. It's also not a good idea to invade and occupy countries that have an impressive record of chewing up invaders and spitting them out.

PK

[phylo_roadking]

For sheer entertainment value, may I recommend -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauldron_(book)

[statemachine]

Cauldron could be a board game.Paddy,you make the time the Brits spent in Rhodesia and Kenya sound like a romantic novel.Not sure Mugabe shares that view.As for Afghanistan...some people will never learn.

[statemachine]

Phylo,the Italians have decent relations with the Eritreans,Libyans,the northern part of Somalia.Not sure about Ethiopia.

[phylo_roadking]

the Italians have decent relations with the Eritreans,Libyans,the northern part of Somalia

Having decent relations is a very far cry from the depth of relations the UK has or had for decades with the Commonwealth nations. P.S. Eritrea does NOT have decent relations with Italy - in fact they're very strained at the minute, and have been for three years, along with the rest of the EU... And given that it's only EXISTED for 17 years (de facto)...

Somalia has decent relations with italy - because Italy, second only to the USA, gave Somalia considerable foreign aid in the years following independence in 1960!

Libya had close links for the first few years of the united kingdom after 1951...but as with the rest of the "West" and EU, relations went to hell during most of the first thirty years of Gaddafi's rule. Relations have only improved again since 1999.

[statemachine]

Phylo,the Commowealth,apart from the Indians,mostly white people from the British Isles.The Africans,not so sure they share your view.(Select any Mugabe rant for something with lots of colour).Older Eritreans have fond memories of the Italians,they built a lot of infrastructure.Asmara is widely considered the best city in Africa.Anyhoo,I still say the best role for the Germans is taking the lead in organising technology for the EU.