Will the "Bad" Germans ever forgive the Allies

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:47 am

Nibelung

I think you nailed it. I don't like Sadaam any more than the next guy - but I too saw him as a Tito like influence in a volatile area. When we pretend to pull out on 30 June I dread the consequences - we have manouvered ourselves very nicely into a lose / lose situation.

I would have left Sadaam alone. If he tried to really get nukes - the Israelis would have swatted him like a fly - as they did once before.
Sadaam at worst was a regional problem - and middle east ain't my region.

As to attacking the US? Stalin hated us quite as much as Sadaam and had the means to hurt us: poison gas, nukes and biologicals. But deterence worked - he know we'd give him a double helping back.
Why couldn't it work with Sadaam who posed much less of a threat?

State terrorism is no where near as effective as this Al Queda stuff - because you have a definite target to hit and a whole population of hostages if you choose to retaliate.

Of course I don't share this American paranoia about terrorism - they just don't impress me enough. That 9/11 stunt was a statistical anomoly - Arabs can be very brave but usually aren't particularly organized. Were America still free - at least half the people on those planes would have been armed and there would have been terrorist soup on the menu!

You'll notice the Terrorists have been smart enough not to mess with us in the south. We'd give 'em a bad case of the 'river blindness.'

Just my 2 cents
Reb

101stDoc · Post by **101stDoc** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:16 pm

Nibelung wrote: OK, that is all true, but there was no open conflict bethween the Kurds, Sunits and the Shiits if you know what I mean? He was a man of the worst callibre, but he kept the country in stalemate if not in peace.

What do you define as "open conflict"? There had been ongoing fighting in Iraq between Kurdish forces and Saddam's blokes over the past decade. Hell, they're still going at it in places up north.

I don't know what you call a war, but war is what they were waging. It's been going on for years. Probably still be going on when we're all dead and buried.

Doc

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:29 am

What do you define as "open conflict"? There had been ongoing fighting in Iraq between Kurdish forces and Saddam's blokes over the past decade. Hell, they're still going at it in places up north.

Maybe true, but now that the US & other forces are there and the situation doesn't seem to improve, it's getting worse; the coallition soldiers are getting buthchered in a way that the West will never understand. The only thing you have done was that the conflict became even greater and total.

best,
Nibelung

Dogmeat · Post by **Dogmeat** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:07 am

people of iraq:
-arent getting electricty(5-7hours a day if theyra lucky).
-they cant get outta their houses after 7pm.
-they cant get to much drinking water.
-they are aferaid of being shot(by usa soldiers,or iraqi militants)everday
-thousands of em livin in northern parts of the country are gettin thrown of their homes by kurds so kurdish people live in them rather than iraqis.entire villages are forced to migrate.

Iraq is not safe!

things are definitly getting worser every day,and life was certainly better during saddams rule.invading iraq definitly didnt help USA decrese the hatred against USA all over the world.
I think rather than discussing if an invasion was necesseariy-legal(to me it wasnt) we should try to fix things in iraq(and not by killing all iraqis)well how are we supposed to do thaht?HELL IF I NOW.

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:25 am

Dogmeat

One thing to consider is that Iraq is a big place - I correspond regularly with folks over there and get very conflicting descriptions of what is going on. This does not mean that one is lying and the other telling the truth but rather than some areas are a big mess and some aren't.

I happen to agree with you that going in there was a bad idea. Strategically it put the US behind the eightball. Morally - well each to their own opinion - some intelligent folks think it was a good idea. My opinion is that I don't believe in invading other countries and I find the terror threat laughable - and govt response would be downright hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous to liberty and wasn't creating more terrorists who evenutally might actually constitute a threat.

cheers
Reb

101stDoc · Post by **101stDoc** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:21 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
people of iraq:
-arent getting electricty(5-7hours a day if theyra lucky).
-they cant get outta their houses after 7pm.
-they cant get to much drinking water.
-they are aferaid of being shot(by usa soldiers,or iraqi militants)everday
-thousands of em livin in northern parts of the country are gettin thrown of their homes by kurds so kurdish people live in them rather than iraqis.entire villages are forced to migrate.

Several of the people of Iraq:
-Arn't getting electricity because they are killing contractors, blowing up convoys, trying (and often succeeding) in creating a sense of terror (aka terrorism) to those that are involved in getting the power back on, etc.
-Keep blowing up transports with the water, or attacking them and trying to "confiscate" them. Shades of Somalia...
-Probably should be afraid, as more Iraqis are probably armed right now than foreign soldiers or domestic security.
-Well, considering that some of these homes were Kurdish homes that the "southern elements" took from them, and that they tried to wipe out the Kurds...I have little sympathy. Payback is truly a bitch.

Doc

101stDoc · Post by **101stDoc** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:22 pm

Nibelung wrote:
soldiers are getting buthchered in a way that the West will never understand.

Oh I think we understand.

Doc

Dogmeat · Post by **Dogmeat** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:48 pm

101stDoc wrote:

Several of the people of Iraq:
-Arn't getting electricity because they are killing contractors, blowing up convoys, trying (and often succeeding) in creating a sense of terror (aka terrorism) to those that are involved in getting the power back on, etc.
-Keep blowing up transports with the water, or attacking them and trying to "confiscate" them. Shades of Somalia...
-Probably should be afraid, as more Iraqis are probably armed right now than foreign soldiers or domestic security.
-Well, considering that some of these homes were Kurdish homes that the "southern elements" took from them, and that they tried to wipe out the Kurds...I have little sympathy. Payback is truly a bitch.

Doc

Hi doc,

you sound like you hold majority of iraqis responsible for whats going on there(or i just misunderstood).there are of course people who dont give a damn about saddam,or g.w bush,or politics,people who want go on their lives,people who want to celeberate a wedding while not being bombed to their pieces,to many people are getting punished there,and i find all sides responsible for this,militants,usa,terrorist,bla bla bla.as i have said before people,politicians,all the people shoul try to fix things up rather than sending troops to hunt duwn terrorist and stuff.(well fixin things up would be harder thought)
well,thahts my thought of course,my 2 cents.

cheers,dogmeat

101stDoc · Post by **101stDoc** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:00 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
you sound like you hold majority of iraqis responsible for whats going on there(or i just misunderstood).

No, I do not feel that a "majority" of the Iraqis are involved in this. But believe you me, it's more than just a few nutters running around with AK-47s. And there are MOSTLY civilians. Remember, there technically is no official Iraqi army belligerent towards allied forces any more. The people that are pulling the triggers now are predominantly terrorists in the truest sense of the word. Very few of these entites wear anything remotely identifying themselves as a military body. It really is like places like Somalia, Vietnam etc. You don't know who the enemy is, so you watch your ass twice as often.

Politicians did try and fix the situation in Iraq. Talk did not work, the UN oil for food program was a joke (it would have worked if it had not relied so much on Saddam's regime to distribute it), the UN intervention was a joke (surprise there <sarcasm>)...etc. The MISTAKE we made was not going all the way back in ODS. Instead, we bowed to local and international pressure to just liberate Kuwait and that alone. Then we had eight years of Clinton watching the Kurds being murdered, as well as other "undesirables". And of course the government abandoned Scott Striker there...not that MIAs or POWs...or the military for that matter...were high on Clinton's list. Then came Dubya, 9-11, Afghanistan, Iraq...bleh...the world is just going is all.

Doc

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:12 am

Hi Dogmeat,

I presume that you are an advocate of self determination for Turkey's Kurds and would like to see the Turkish Army withdrawn to Turkish-populated areas?

Turkish Kurdistan is not safe - if you are a Kurd.

Cheers,

Sid.

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:48 am

Nibelung wrote:

soldiers are getting buthchered in a way that the West will never understand.

Oh I think we understand.

No, we don't understand. It's the same as the Crusades. The arabs took 250 years to rid the 'country' of the crusaders. No one, and I mean no one from the western world can truly undertand the mentality of those people and what is important to them.

And I think that Degmeat would agree.

best,
Nibelung

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:25 am

Sid - re Kurds

Ouch!

Next thing you know you'll be claiming there is more than one
side to the issue!

cheers
Reb

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:26 am

Nibelung

Have you been reading your Kipling lately?

'East is East and West is West
And never the twain shall meet'

cheers
Reb

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:42 am

Well not Kipling, but the Koran

best,
Nibelung

101stDoc · Post by **101stDoc** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:27 am

Nibelung wrote:

No, we don't understand.

[/quote]

Well, in your case perhaps not, but I understand how far they are willing to go. I've seen it firsthand.

That doesn't mean we should run and hide in corners.

Doc