Hi panzermahn,
It was in a Radio 4 Broadcast.
It was brought to my attention by the following post here on Feldgrau:
"Post subject: Hitler's Indians. Indian Regiment 950
BBC Radio 4 documentary on Monday 20th September 8pm: will explain all.... the PRO had the documents under a 70 year ban, but these have been released early......"
_________________
I listened to it and replied:
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:49 am
Hi Guys,
I listened to the radio broadcast.
It was presented as if the Indian Legion was some sort of new archival discovery, which it patently is not.
It also used as a hook the premature release of British files that had been embargoed for another 17 years. These were a disappointment for conspiracy theorists who believe that every embargoed file hides some awful secret. In fact they were the debriefing papers of three German officers who had deserted the Indian Legion to the French Resistance after the brother of one of them had been implicated in the Bomb Plot. It appears that while the Indian Legion was a nest of anti-British sentiment, the Indian Legion's German cadre had a nest of anti-Hitler sentiment!
The programme ended with one of the veterans interviewed saying "The Nazi system ruined 3,000 men (the Indian volunteers) without any real gain to the Nazis themselves."
Cheers,
Sid.
P.S. The programme also quote Bose, the units political founder, as describing Hitler as "Raving Mad"!
Cheers,
Sid.
Azad Hind & Subhas Chandra Bose
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sid,
Whether or not Subhas Chadra Bose or the Indian Legion did anything for their country is not my point when I said that. Bose and many Indian men died for the freedome of their country.
It's very possible British would have it in the back of their minds after the war that thousands of people who took oaths to the monarch of Britain, switched to Hitler's aid at the snap of a finger. You don't know if the Indian Legion and Bose really didn't have anything to do with freedom because when officers of the Indian Legion were taken to India to be hanged or placed in jail, large scale riots took place and shortly thereafter the British relinquished control.
Whether or not Subhas Chadra Bose or the Indian Legion did anything for their country is not my point when I said that. Bose and many Indian men died for the freedome of their country.
It's very possible British would have it in the back of their minds after the war that thousands of people who took oaths to the monarch of Britain, switched to Hitler's aid at the snap of a finger. You don't know if the Indian Legion and Bose really didn't have anything to do with freedom because when officers of the Indian Legion were taken to India to be hanged or placed in jail, large scale riots took place and shortly thereafter the British relinquished control.
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"Wir Siegt on Allen Fronten!"...
You mean "Wir siegen an allen Fronten". But Your English is better than mine. .
Regards
Matt
You mean "Wir siegen an allen Fronten". But Your English is better than mine. .
Regards
Matt
Best Regards
Matthias
"Lage?"-"Beschissen wäre geprahlt!"
Matthias
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H K98,
One has to differentiate between the Indian Legion, which militarily contributed virtually nothing towards either Indian freedom or the Third Reich, and the much larger INA, the 1st Division of which did at least take the field with the Japanese in 1944, although without obvious military impact because the Japanese could neither equip nor supply it properly. Most of its casualties were from disease and starvation and the Indian Army did not find it a dangerous opponent in the field. Its men certainly died for India, but not to any military effect.
The INA was so little a threat that it went virtually unpunished after the war. Its reputation was saved by British stupidity in putting a handful of its officers on trial after the war. This quite unnecessarily created a cause celebre for Indian nationalists and gave the INA a popular public profile its military activities had not earnt it.
The fact of the matter is that from a military point of view, the best performances by Indian troops in WWII were in the British Indian Army. On its own, 4th or 5th Indian Division (I forget which) suffered some 25,000 casualties in WWII and inflicted the loss of some 125,000 prisoners alone on the Axis.
I have no objection to recognising the sacrifice of the INA men for India, but it should be kept in some historical perspective.
Cheers,
Sid.
One has to differentiate between the Indian Legion, which militarily contributed virtually nothing towards either Indian freedom or the Third Reich, and the much larger INA, the 1st Division of which did at least take the field with the Japanese in 1944, although without obvious military impact because the Japanese could neither equip nor supply it properly. Most of its casualties were from disease and starvation and the Indian Army did not find it a dangerous opponent in the field. Its men certainly died for India, but not to any military effect.
The INA was so little a threat that it went virtually unpunished after the war. Its reputation was saved by British stupidity in putting a handful of its officers on trial after the war. This quite unnecessarily created a cause celebre for Indian nationalists and gave the INA a popular public profile its military activities had not earnt it.
The fact of the matter is that from a military point of view, the best performances by Indian troops in WWII were in the British Indian Army. On its own, 4th or 5th Indian Division (I forget which) suffered some 25,000 casualties in WWII and inflicted the loss of some 125,000 prisoners alone on the Axis.
I have no objection to recognising the sacrifice of the INA men for India, but it should be kept in some historical perspective.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Hi k98,
My father was a subaltern with the 6th Rajputs in Burma, and loved Indian troops to the day he died. He was one of the last British officers to pass out of the Indian Military Academy (now in Pakistan). He even wrote poems about sharing cold curry with Bombay Sappers and Miners in a roadside ditch at sunset! You won't find me inclined to attack the qualities of Indians as troops on either side unecessarily.
The nature of Feldgrau naturally generates questions about obscure foreign units in the Wehrmacht, Indians included. It is sometimes necessary to remind people how few they usually were and how untypical they were of most of their countrymen.
Cheers,
Sid.
My father was a subaltern with the 6th Rajputs in Burma, and loved Indian troops to the day he died. He was one of the last British officers to pass out of the Indian Military Academy (now in Pakistan). He even wrote poems about sharing cold curry with Bombay Sappers and Miners in a roadside ditch at sunset! You won't find me inclined to attack the qualities of Indians as troops on either side unecessarily.
The nature of Feldgrau naturally generates questions about obscure foreign units in the Wehrmacht, Indians included. It is sometimes necessary to remind people how few they usually were and how untypical they were of most of their countrymen.
Cheers,
Sid.
The credibility of sources
Sid,
Are you making too much out of the statements of 3 German officers on the run? No matter their motives, they would hardly endear themselves to their British captors if they said these Indians were perfect supermen fighters, due to the injustices their people suffered under the Raj.
In the end, 3,000 served in Europe, which is a good number considering that they were enrolled when Germany and its allies were loosing.
Are you making too much out of the statements of 3 German officers on the run? No matter their motives, they would hardly endear themselves to their British captors if they said these Indians were perfect supermen fighters, due to the injustices their people suffered under the Raj.
In the end, 3,000 served in Europe, which is a good number considering that they were enrolled when Germany and its allies were loosing.
Honny soit qui mal y pense!
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Hi Opa,
I don't think you have read my posts. I am basing nothing on any statemements by three German officers on the run. I merely reported these guys' existence.
Otherwise, I don't think I have made too much of anything. The non-performance of the Indian Legion is evident without having to resort to their opinions.
Nor would the British have been surprised if they had reported the Indians as good soldiers. After all, that was precisely why the British had recruited them from India's so-called "martial castes" in the first place!
What do you think the Indian Legion contributed militarily to either India or the Third Reich? I can't think of anything. It certainly existed, but it didn't fight. The INA did at least campaign, however ineffectively.
Cheers,
Sid.
P.S. The Indian Legion was raised in 1941-42, when the Axis were winning, not later when they were losing.
I don't think you have read my posts. I am basing nothing on any statemements by three German officers on the run. I merely reported these guys' existence.
Otherwise, I don't think I have made too much of anything. The non-performance of the Indian Legion is evident without having to resort to their opinions.
Nor would the British have been surprised if they had reported the Indians as good soldiers. After all, that was precisely why the British had recruited them from India's so-called "martial castes" in the first place!
What do you think the Indian Legion contributed militarily to either India or the Third Reich? I can't think of anything. It certainly existed, but it didn't fight. The INA did at least campaign, however ineffectively.
Cheers,
Sid.
P.S. The Indian Legion was raised in 1941-42, when the Axis were winning, not later when they were losing.
However Sid, your writing style does suggest you seem to know more which in the end turns out as a quote from a radio show.
About the liaison officers for instance...whatever that means since they were German cadre personnel of the unit.
NOT liaison officers.
One of them was the Legion's chief medic...just to give a tip
And yes, they did put up a fight in France although being of little military significance.
Most Indians were the wrong guys in the wrong place at the wrong time...although there were some "hardcore" volunteers as well.
Also true is that there is still loads off bullshit written about this unit, and it keeps going on...sadly enough
regards,
fons
About the liaison officers for instance...whatever that means since they were German cadre personnel of the unit.
NOT liaison officers.
One of them was the Legion's chief medic...just to give a tip
And yes, they did put up a fight in France although being of little military significance.
Most Indians were the wrong guys in the wrong place at the wrong time...although there were some "hardcore" volunteers as well.
Also true is that there is still loads off bullshit written about this unit, and it keeps going on...sadly enough
regards,
fons
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Hi Fons,
All one can do is offer sources when asked. This I did. I am not in any way embarrassed that source was a radio show.
The "radio show" was a serious documentary, seriously researched on a serious radio station and shouldn't be knocked just because the medium is unfamiliar. The audio version of a book doesn't become less authoritative than the book itself just because it is transmitted over the radio.
Thank you for refining the facts by revealing that the men concerned were cadre personnel, not laison officers, and that one of them was the chief medic.
Can you tell us more about the fight you say they put up in France? I seem to recall that they were deployed somewhere in the west-centre of France and never came into contact with Allied regular forces.
Cheers,
Sid.
All one can do is offer sources when asked. This I did. I am not in any way embarrassed that source was a radio show.
The "radio show" was a serious documentary, seriously researched on a serious radio station and shouldn't be knocked just because the medium is unfamiliar. The audio version of a book doesn't become less authoritative than the book itself just because it is transmitted over the radio.
Thank you for refining the facts by revealing that the men concerned were cadre personnel, not laison officers, and that one of them was the chief medic.
Can you tell us more about the fight you say they put up in France? I seem to recall that they were deployed somewhere in the west-centre of France and never came into contact with Allied regular forces.
Cheers,
Sid.
Last edited by sid guttridge on Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.