Can someone supply a timetable from when the people in Finland decided to make peace with Russia to the actual moment that they did agree to make peace!
Then how long after peace was signed was it before the fighting stopped between the Russians and the Finns?
Finland making peace (the time required)
Moderator: George Lepre
Now, the answer depends on what do you exactly mean by the 'people of Finland'... But here's an answer of sorts.
The first doubts in the Finnish leadership about the outcome of the war were already aroused after the German failure to defeat the Soviet Union before the end of 1941. Because for Finland the reason to join the Barbarossa was to win back the territories lost after the Winter War of 1939-40, for most of the Finnish leadership the ideal outcome of the WWII would have been similar of the WWI: first Germany defeats Russia, and is in turn defeated by the Western Allies. There were very little illusions what would have been Finland's ultimate fate in a German-dominated Europe.
But after the German defeat in Stalingrad in early 1943 it was clear that Finns have to deal with the Soviets. In early February 1943 there was held a conference between the military and civilian leadership, where chief of the GHQ intelligence section Col. Aladar Paasio stated bluntly that Germany will lose the war, and Finland is lucky, if she gets out with the same terms as after the Winter War. Paasio's statement caused something of an uproar, and he had to tone it down somewhat. But the spirit was out of the bottle, and the Finnish leadership began to seek a way out of the war.
This had to be done very carefully, of course, because Germany was still strong enough to harm Finland, perhaps even to occupy her. Juho Paasikivi, former ambassador to Moscow travelled to Stockholm in spring 1943 to contact the Soviets, but nothing came out of it. And after the Germans found out, they were enraged. The Fenno-German relations hit a rock bottom.
The next serious peace-feelers came a year later. Germany had suffered further defeats, and was considerably weaker. In spring 1944 Paasikivi travelled to Moscow to find out the Soviet terms. In April 1944 the Soviet terms were rejected by the Finnish Parliament as too harsh. At the time the Finnish Army still occupied Soviet territory, and haven't been subjected to any major Soviet offensive. The general opinion was still rather hopeful, and probably wouldn't have accepted a peace like that when the Finnish position seemed still strong.
There were two immediate results of these peace-feelers. Germany stopped all weapon and food shipments in retaliation, and the Soviets began planning a major offensive to knock Finland out of the war. This offensive began on 9 June 1944, and the first phase was a complete Soviet success. They broke through the Finnish lines and the Finnish Army was forced to withdraw a considerable distance. Finnish peace-feelers were answered with a demand for an unconditional surrender. However, in late June and early July Finns, steeled by the desperate situation and reinforced by reneved German help, achieved victories at Tali-Ihantala, Bay of Viipuri and Vuosalmi, and stopped dead the Soviet attempts to reach the inner parts of Finland and occupy the country.
This paved way for a negotiated peace, and the peace was finally made in September 1944 with somewhat easier terms than offered in previous spring.
I hope this answered your question in full...
The first doubts in the Finnish leadership about the outcome of the war were already aroused after the German failure to defeat the Soviet Union before the end of 1941. Because for Finland the reason to join the Barbarossa was to win back the territories lost after the Winter War of 1939-40, for most of the Finnish leadership the ideal outcome of the WWII would have been similar of the WWI: first Germany defeats Russia, and is in turn defeated by the Western Allies. There were very little illusions what would have been Finland's ultimate fate in a German-dominated Europe.
But after the German defeat in Stalingrad in early 1943 it was clear that Finns have to deal with the Soviets. In early February 1943 there was held a conference between the military and civilian leadership, where chief of the GHQ intelligence section Col. Aladar Paasio stated bluntly that Germany will lose the war, and Finland is lucky, if she gets out with the same terms as after the Winter War. Paasio's statement caused something of an uproar, and he had to tone it down somewhat. But the spirit was out of the bottle, and the Finnish leadership began to seek a way out of the war.
This had to be done very carefully, of course, because Germany was still strong enough to harm Finland, perhaps even to occupy her. Juho Paasikivi, former ambassador to Moscow travelled to Stockholm in spring 1943 to contact the Soviets, but nothing came out of it. And after the Germans found out, they were enraged. The Fenno-German relations hit a rock bottom.
The next serious peace-feelers came a year later. Germany had suffered further defeats, and was considerably weaker. In spring 1944 Paasikivi travelled to Moscow to find out the Soviet terms. In April 1944 the Soviet terms were rejected by the Finnish Parliament as too harsh. At the time the Finnish Army still occupied Soviet territory, and haven't been subjected to any major Soviet offensive. The general opinion was still rather hopeful, and probably wouldn't have accepted a peace like that when the Finnish position seemed still strong.
There were two immediate results of these peace-feelers. Germany stopped all weapon and food shipments in retaliation, and the Soviets began planning a major offensive to knock Finland out of the war. This offensive began on 9 June 1944, and the first phase was a complete Soviet success. They broke through the Finnish lines and the Finnish Army was forced to withdraw a considerable distance. Finnish peace-feelers were answered with a demand for an unconditional surrender. However, in late June and early July Finns, steeled by the desperate situation and reinforced by reneved German help, achieved victories at Tali-Ihantala, Bay of Viipuri and Vuosalmi, and stopped dead the Soviet attempts to reach the inner parts of Finland and occupy the country.
This paved way for a negotiated peace, and the peace was finally made in September 1944 with somewhat easier terms than offered in previous spring.
I hope this answered your question in full...
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Jason Pipes
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Thank you for this detailed response but some more questions
What authority was he given and on whose? Was it done in secret! Could the Finns have accepted a peace say to return to the pre-WW2 border or would that be impossible because of the Germans.When in the of spring 1944 Paasikivi travelled to Moscow to find out the Soviet terms.
However am I right in saying that in late June and early July the Finns goverment finally decided on peace at a heavy price. And that it took till September 1944 for them to get it. About 3 months.
Paasikivi was, of course, authorized by the Finnish government to go to Moscow. He was an official negotiator. As for the secrecy, well, yes, but of course Germans soon found out, even before the Soviets published the whole thing.What authority was he given and on whose? Was it done in secret!
Certainly Finns would have accepted, and in 1944 the Germans would have been too weak to prevent it. But of course the Soviets wouldn't offer such terms at that point.Could the Finns have accepted a peace say to return to the pre-WW2 border or would that be impossible because of the Germans.
In fact, in autumn 1941 Stalin hinted to Americans that he would consider making peace with generous terms with Finland, and the Americans let Finns know. But at that point Stalin's offer wasn't worth serious consideration. Germany was apparently about to win the war, and even if Finns would have been interested, German reaction would surely been swift and brutal.
I'd rather say that the Finnish government decided on peace already in February 1943. It just took time to reach a situation, where the Soviet terms were acceptable. It takes two to make a peace.However am I right in saying that in late June and early July the Finns goverment finally decided on peace at a heavy price. And that it took till September 1944 for them to get it. About 3 months.
After the Fenno-Soviet front was stabilised in July 1944, the Finnish position was favourable for a negotiated peace (as opposed to unconditional surrender Soviets had demanded in June 1944). Marshal Mannerheim replaced Risto Ryti as the President of the Republic in early August 1944, and soon afterwards the peace-feelers started. After the Finnish Parliament accepted the Soviet conditions for starting the peace negotiations on 2 September 1944, the cease-fire began on 4 September, and the peace was concluded on 19 September. It took about two months to make the peace, once both sides had general agreement on terms.
An addition to the excellent posting by Mikko, if I may: In 1944 with the Soviet attack gaining ground in the Karelian Isthmus our president Risto Ryti made a personal promise to the German government saying that as long as he was the president, there would be no separate peace with the Soviets. This was the so-called Ribbentrop pact and Ryti signed it only himself with no ratification from the Parliament as would have been needed to make the pact really binding. Then, in the beginning of August Ryti resigns and Mannerheim is elected as president by the Parliament and the road to peace was open.
It seems that the Germans realized that the promise they got from Ryti was really not quite enough but they thought it would be in their interest not to pressure Finland too much. Therefore they agreed to sell us grain und much-needed arms.
And it was Colonel Aladar Paasonen, not Paasio.
regards,
Tapani K.
It seems that the Germans realized that the promise they got from Ryti was really not quite enough but they thought it would be in their interest not to pressure Finland too much. Therefore they agreed to sell us grain und much-needed arms.
And it was Colonel Aladar Paasonen, not Paasio.
regards,
Tapani K.
Please some more questions
Before such a meeting would take place there would have had to have been some previous negotiations. A guy from an enemy state just does not show up in Moscow in a war to meet the Russian goverment leaders.Paasikivi was, of course, authorized by the Finnish government to go to Moscow. He was an official negotiator.
Who did he meet there? What was the agenda?
After the meeting how did Paasikivi feel about it. Did Paasikivi think they were a failure?
Did all discussions stop after this!
There had been previous probes, again through Stockholm, establishing the viability of such mission.Before such a meeting would take place there would have had to have been some previous negotiations. A guy from an enemy state just does not show up in Moscow in a war to meet the Russian goverment leaders
The chief Soviet negotiator was Molotov. Agenda was the terms of peace. Paasikivi's mission was to find out on what terms the Soviets were ready make peace.Who did he meet there? What was the agenda?
In his diaries Paasikivi noted that while the Soviets were absolutely unyielding in negotiations, they -- Molotov included -- were always scrupulously polite towards him personally. In Paasikivi's opinion the negotiations in spring 1944 were failure in the sense, that Finns rejected the Soviet terms. He thought they should have been accepted.After the meeting how did Paasikivi feel about it. Did Paasikivi think they were a failure?
Yes, until August 1944 (if we don't count the Soviet demand of unconditional surrender in June).Did all discussions stop after this!